Fischer E-109 vs. Asnes Ingstad

[lilcliffy]

Yeah- the E-109 is very different from the S-Bounds- and I agree with that review on BCWA- my test of the E-109 was that it was double-cambered as well...The E-109 looks like, smells like, and acts like a trad XC-BC ski.

Shape- hmm- the current E-109 does have a lot of sidecut for a XC ski....

But- I think it has a lot to do with snow conditions and turning technique...

Gamme the elder is literally forcing those Gamme 54s to turn in those videos- forcing them through a combination of striding (in his instructional video he is clearly lifting the inside ski right off the snow), and lunging/jumping into a carved turn. The ski has to be quick, light, and responsive to do this "easily"- not that I would describe that lunging/jumping technique as "easy"- you got to be in peak condition to do that all day.

Regardless- Gamme is not using the "modern" technique of simply putting a ski, with parabolic sidecut, on edge- weight it, to engage the edge- and then watch 'em turn! Mike- you've described it well- a ski like the S-98 "wants" to turn. Traditional XC skis don't "want" to turn- one has to use technique to make them turn.

Most every ski in Gamme's chart is a traditional BC-XC ski (except for the Storetind)- because of this, I suggest that his rating of a ski's turnability is related to how effectively they can be made to turn.

Would be interesting for him to test and plot the S-Bounds and the Madshus XCDs on his chart (all of the S-bounds would end up with the Storetind; the XCDS maybe a little less "turny").

Interesting that the Norwegians have little interest in the S-Bounds/XCDs. They do sell them in Europe...just no interest in Norway?

[MikeK]

these skis all work well - you can do what I did - go with the best artwork/graphics. I'm getting the ones with the dog next!

I think that means you have to buy a dog to go skiing with you!

Next dog I buy is going to like snow - Chihuahuas are not good skiing dogs

[lilcliffy]

these skis all work well - you can do what I did - go with the best artwork/graphics. I'm getting the ones with the dog next!

I think that means you have to buy a dog to go skiing with you!

Next dog I buy is going to like snow - Chihuahuas are not good skiing dogs

That's funny! Yes- I imagine your Chihuahua would like that deep wet snow even less than those Glitts and Eons.

I take all three of our dogs with me (2 border collies and an Australian shepherd. The Australian shep struggles in the deep snow- more compact build and MUCH smaller feet).

[MikeK]

I bet they don't sell S Bounds in Norway because they are all waxless

Those guys don't seem so keen on waxless skis. All the models they show are wax, and Asnes doesn't make waxless skis to my knowledge.

As far a technique, I don't know!? The other vids we've seen of the Norwegians cruising down mellow slopes they were making slow, smooth, wide arcs - much like expect to make on narrower skis with small sidecut when you aren't jumping.

The S Bounds want to make tight arcs! You'd have to be really gentle with them to makes long sweeping arcs.

Geez - the Storetind looks like an awesome ski actually. It is probably more like a waxed S Bound in some sense. It's more rockered and only comes in short lengths, so it's not an exact comparison, but I'd bet the S Bounds would rate in between the Nansen and the Storetind on that chart, probably all fairly closely grouped as well, as their doesn't seem to be a huge difference in them except probably their turning radius, weight and climbing ability -> obviously all increasing with increasing width except the turning radius which would likely go the other way. Flotation would surely follow width as well.

Actually, thinking about it, that graph would probably be very compressed if we added in all the fatter NA options for skis. It would probably be relatively low on turning ability and pretty high up on speed compared to our waxless skis on up to the Vector and Charger which would be the fattest and slowest with monster dh ability and float.

[Cannatonic]

I think that means you have to buy a dog to go skiing with you!

Next dog I buy is going to like snow - Chihuahuas are not good skiing dogs

Breidablikk would be good for any tour that doesn't involve ice or crust. will be lighter-weight than edged skis

I find E99-type skis (gamme54, etc) turn without jumping or forcing them, w/ 3-pin boots you can steer them into big arcing turns without the gymnastics

[MikeK]

That's funny! Yes- I imagine your Chihuahua would like that deep wet snow even less than those Glitts and Eons.

She struggles with a dusting of snow! She'll barely go out to poop. All she wants to do in the winter is sit next to the heater vent and get under blankets.

[lilcliffy]

One of my closest friends has a Boston terrier- same behaviour.

[lilcliffy]

I bet they don't sell S Bounds in Norway because they are all waxless

I'm sure you are right about this- despite the amount of warm, wet spring snow they ski on...go figure. And you are correct- Asnes does not make waxless skis.

But- I also think they would consider the S-Bounds, and at least the Epoch/Annum, as purely "telemark" or "alpine touring" skis ("toppturski"). They wouldn't consider them as backcountry-xcountry skis.

As far a technique, I don't know!? The other vids we've seen of the Norwegians cruising down mellow slopes they were making slow, smooth, wide arcs - much like expect to make on narrower skis with small sidecut when you aren't jumping.

Yeah- but those relaxed long-arc skiers ain't Gamme...I get the impression that he is just a little bit performance-orientated. The ability to make, quick, powerful, tight-radius turns is what he is testing- I think (either the ski "wants" to do it (e.g. Storetind) or he is going to make it do it (e.g. Nansen))

Geez - the Storetind looks like an awesome ski actually. It is probably more like a waxed S Bound in some sense. It's more rockered and only comes in short lengths, so it's not an exact comparison, but I'd bet the S Bounds would rate in between the Nansen and the Storetind on that chart, probably all fairly closely grouped as well, as their doesn't seem to be a huge difference in them except probably their turning radius, weight and climbing ability -> obviously all increasing with increasing width except the turning radius which would likely go the other way. Flotation would surely follow width as well.

My thoughts exactly- I would expect the Storetind to perform very similar to an S-98/S-112 or even the Vector. Although the description I got from Asnes suggests that the Storetind has more of a traditional single-camber underfoot, than the Vector- again more like the S-Bounds.

[MikeK]

Yeah it's impossible to tell. I still am really confused about the Nansen vs. the Ingstad. Maybe he has them reversed on his chart - that would make sense to me, but I ain't Gamme! And I've also never fondled or skied any of these skis.

As we know from the S Bound/Karhu/Madshus differences, what looks similar on paper can be very different on the snow.

The vids of the Nansen the trail didn't give me the impression they were a really turny ski. They looked like they'd ski about like my Eons would. They didn't seem slow either, but also they might be sized long for touring.

I'd assume, and this is a big assumption, that Gamme's assessment was going based on Asnes' size/weight charts.

I'd also assume that he was trying to give as fair a judgement as he could to educate other skiers who might purchase these skis. But we all know skier's judgements vary. The Norwegians seem particularly different than us North Americans in what they prefer in skis and how they describe them. What is slow to them is pretty good for NA. What is turny for them is considered pretty mild here.

So we don't really know... and it would be almost impossible to get a better read than Gamme's chart unless we could round up all those skis and compare them back to back. I was just using the few I had skied, but the E99 he is talking about I know is different than the one I had - similar, but not exactly the same. More like the Gamme 54 actually I think.

[lilcliffy]

I'd also assume that he was trying to give as fair a judgement as he could to educate other skiers who might purchase these skis. But we all know skier's judgements vary. The Norwegians seem particularly different than us North Americans in what they prefer in skis and how they describe them. What is slow to them is pretty good for NA. What is turny for them is considered pretty mild here.

And one big difference- all Norwegians are obsessed with Nordic skiing. It is the national sport- they are all performance-orientated when it comes to Nordic skiing...like "football" in South America. World-class Nordic skiers are national heroes in Fennoscandia, Estonia, Russia. In NA- a medal-winning Nordic skier would be lucky to get a couple seconds in a sport news report.

I would compare it to hockey in Canada- but it is very different actually.

Nordic skiing is a life-long way of life for people like the Norwegians.

Canadians are obsessed with hockey- but very few people continue to play it as adults.