Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

A bit of a recurring thread. And more related to XCD type telemarking.

But again I'm still in a learning phase, probably will be for years to come and my wife is just starting to get serious about the dh aspects of BC touring.

I really want to know, what helped you the most?

Videos? Books? One-on-one instruction?

I've tried to convince her to read XCD, but she doesn't seem to have interest in reading about how to do something. There's really a dearth of videos that show good instruction (I think Johnny should make one like Gamme's, but with more content and in English and French). We have an opportunity to ski a BC group meet with a high level tele instructor later this season, and hopefully we can make it. Should be good for both of us but I'm a little worried the group will be too far spread out with skill and she'll struggle, or perhaps I will if they are far beyond me. Either way, we've discussed this before and many answers like skiing on big gear have come up, but honestly I can't get her to do it even if it would work. It seems from others i.e. montrealer that my suspicions were correct that it's a very different way of learning to ski on soft boots, neutral bindings and light, bouncy skis.

I think lots of practice is on the order but really one needs to know what to practice. As a musician she knows very well practicing a piece 100x incorrectly is just as worthless as not practicing at all.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Ski with someone who's got the skills that you want to gain. Follow, watch, and emulate. Then, go out and PRACTICE!

Hopefully this little XCD party we're going to attend will do just that!

The books and videos are where I got the technichal knowledge but I learned to ski by skiing the same easy low angle runs over and over and over again. I recomend slopes that you don't need to scrub speed in the turns. It's a lot easier to figure things out when you don't have to slow down, and when you are familiar with the slope you can concentrate on your form more. I also didn't switch skis much for about 15 years, eliminating one more variable.

If you keep at it long enough you can become an expert but only if you practice. I see people on XCD gear on the trails but they only ski the hills one time on their tour. They do some shaky turns and are on their way. I'm still doing laps on the same hills after 25 years and still getting a kick out of it. If you aren't focused and dedicated to turning it won't come casually.

Agree with Shenanigans. Practice. Be Patient. Push yourself, flail a lot, and drop back down to easier terrain and work on technique. Everyone began as a beginner and sucked.

For me, it's the same for every sport. The learning phase is all about mechanics. The Telemarktips book mentioned above is good for that and has lots of drills. After you get decent and have trained your muscles, you stop focusing on mechanics and find something to take your mind off thinking about the mechanics you spent so much time studying.

Yeah- this is a bit of a recurring thread- but it is an important one! Not just from the personal point of any “new” skier trying to learn; or a skier trying to continuously learn (i.e. me)- but also it helps us learn how to articulate this collective knowledge we have- we can really help each other improve and help truly new skiers.

The above posts are excellent- and well written.

Shenanagains- I particularly appreciate you giving background on the “ecological” context of your skiing. Without putting skiing in the context of climate, terrain, cover, and snow conditions- in my opinion, it is actually pointless to draw any conclusions from a skier’s experience and perspective. (I did a considerable amount of backcountry-mountain skiing in British Columbia in the 1990s (when I wasn’t in a work camp). Your description of your skiing context resonates with my tours in the Columbia and Coast Ranges.)

I agree completely- big mountain, technical downhill skiing is the domain of powerful equipment. For us mere mortals (i.e. me) becoming an “XCD-lite” zealot and trying to ski extreme mountainous terrain and snow on 200+cm xcountry skis, with xcountry boots- is well, shall I say it- a bit much!

I think that I get Mike’s context- and I think that is at least similar to where I am at- at least at this point in my life.

I think there is a big difference between:
1) wanting to be a downhill skier on traditional xcountry ski tech;
2) and being a long-distance xcountry skier that wants to tour in mountainous terrain.

I am and perhaps always have been of the #2 category. My passion for downhill skiing on light xcountry tech is driven by my pursuit of long-distance tours in the mountains- and the ability to ski down the slopes that go along with that. Having done a number of long-distance tours on rigid big-mtn tech (in 1998 I traversed the Caribou Mountain Range from Valemount, in the Rocky Mountain Trench, to 150 Mile House, on AT equipment)- the long-distance efficiency of light Nordic touring equipment is vastly superior!

But I can say this from my experiences- downhill skiing on light Nordic tech ain’t the same as rigid, powerful tech.

I am determined to stick to working on my skills to downhill ski on light Nordic backcountry touring technology. I am unwilling to give up the efficiency of true Nordic kick and glide- for downhill power. (That being said- if I still lived in big-mountain country- I would also have an alpine touring/telemark setup ready to go- at all times!)

I agree- if you are going to downhill-telemark ski on rigid, big-mtn tech in the backcountry- then learning and practicing on similar gear- at lift-serviced resort- is an excellent way to practice and get 1000s of turns under your belt – FAST.

But- I remain unconvinced that this is an ideal method for developing the ability to downhill ski on light Nordic tech.

Here is what helped me- and what still works for me…

First of all, in general, the ability to consistently downhill ski in the backcountry requires balance, strength, and the ability to read the terrain ahead of you.

Downhill skiing on light Nordic tech requires balance and strength on a different plane than more powerful technology.

No matter how skilled a skier is- I believe that this is something that no skier can get away from- in order to consistently complete turn transitions on light Nordic tech- you must have the balance and strength to support all of your weight and momentum on one leg.

(Yeah- there are ideal situations, where you can steer through turn transitions on light Nordic tech- but if you are going to ski in the backcountry- very often the snow, terrain, and/or cover is not ideal.)

On light Nordic tech- I most often have to push/kick down with one leg and then lunge forward on the other leg into the turn- once in the turn I can re-distribute my weight between both skis and carve.

In my experience the strength and balance needed to effectively and consistently turn on light equipment- is the same strength and balance needed to effectively and consistently complete the diagonal stride when K&G xcountry skiing.

I do practice my turns- but I spend more time- much more time- covering distance and continuously working at shifting my weight from one leg to the other- and powering my way through the diagonal stride.

This is at least one perspective where I am on the same page as Steve Barnett in his classic “Cross Country-Downhill”: SB claimed that the best preparation and practice for the telemark was developing a powerful and efficient diagonal stride. I agree with him!

I spend as much time as I possibly can, covering distance on xcountry skis- continuously building that strength and balance on light gear. When I am in xcountry shape- I find I have more than enough balance and strength to stride my way through telemark turns on light equipment.

Developing the strength and balance necessary on the slope alone, can be a long, frustrating and demoralizing experience. I personally think you are better served building up that strength, balance and muscle memory covering distance on the flats-and as a bonus- you get to see more of the landscape!

I also find that regularly covering miles on the classic xcountry groomed track is an excellent and satisfying way to build the necessary balance and strength- to telemark on light tech. I try to cover some miles on the classic groomed track at least a couple of times a week- it makes a huge difference to my performance in the backcountry!

So- “what was my biggest help me learning telemark”? On light, Nordic touring equipment?

What still is my biggest help learning to telemark.

The same thing that always has- miles, and miles and miles of xcountry skiing.

My experience? If I am in shape, and I have built up the balance, strength, and muscle memory- skiing downhill is intuitive and fluid.

If I am out of shape, and don’t have the balance and strength needed- flailing around and repeatedly falling on light equipment is a waste of time- I need to stop and put in the miles to build up my strength and balance.

My advice- if you are struggling on the slope- and want to pull it off on light equipment- get off the slope and put in the miles on the flats- before you go back to the slope.

Man that post really hit home with me. Maybe because I've been reading too much Steve Barnett or I'm a Nordic skier at heart, the diagonal stride has been my main focus for EVERYTHING.

I always tell my wife... commit. 100% weight on that front ski when you stride. When you are going slow through some technical terrain. Stride into it. Powerfully. I try to use my stride, my weight and the effective 'steering' of the skis to maneuver through stuff and keep my balance. I cannot believe how much better I've gotten at this since I started doing a lot of xc skiing again.

Yeah all this has helped me. Skiing 195-200cm skis with zero cuff leather boots and NNN bindings and making turns is not easy. I never thought it would be.

I said it on the other thread but I'm trying not to make the mistake of striding into my turns at speed, going slow, yes I do, to actively weight them and keep the most dynamic balance.

At speed I've been trying to use more of what CIMA (and others) were teaching about scissoring rather than striding forward i.e. keeping your speed and weight balance more consistent rather than forcing yourself into it. I believe this is a key advantage over what Barnett is saying as it keeps you centered over the skis and doesn't accelerate you through the turn. I think everything else he mentions seems sound, and seems to be on par with what the Japanese guys are doing.

Barnett mentions little about edging of the rear ski, but to really carve that rear ski, it's all about edge control. I honestly hate the feeling of the rear ski staying flat and dragging as it tries to keep up with your body and the front ski. This is where the Japanese masters were excelling. They are actually getting close to a pure carve on relatively straight, stiffly cambered skis with soft boots... AMAZING. But it shows it can be done. Might be a little like drifting a car at 100mph... which many Japanese drivers pioneered... but my expectations are a bit lower. Being able to confidently control the skis in a variety of snow on moderate slopes is more my goal.

Anyway, this was actually more focused on my wife, who has plastic lite tele boots. She just needs to get the technique and practice.

lilcliffy wrote: 1) wanting to be a downhill skier on traditional xcountry ski tech;
2) and being a long-distance xcountry skier that wants to tour in mountainous terrain.

This is an important distinction; but they are not mutually exclusive, and some do both with ease. However, at this point in my life, I'm firmly behind door number two as well.

lilcliffy wrote:So- “what was my biggest help me learning telemark”? On light, Nordic touring equipment? What still is my biggest help learning to telemark. The same thing that always has- miles, and miles and miles of xcountry skiing.
My experience? If I am in shape, and I have built up the balance, strength, and muscle memory- skiing downhill is intuitive and fluid. My advice- if you are struggling on the slope- and want to pull it off on light equipment- get off the slope and put in the miles on the flats- before you go back to the slope.

I'm relearning to turn, after a long break with only the sporadic outing on skinny skis and 3 pins at the local ski hill with my boys.

Having said that, the comments above resonate with me, for the type of ski touring I'm interested in. Very sage advice.

And once strength, balance and muscle memory are all there from lots of K&G skiing, then I opt for that below, on low grade runs using light nordic equipment, to build muscle memory for turning.

Shenanagains wrote:A season pass at the local downhill ski area! Nothing beats endless practice turning, and in meeting locals in the woods here, all have copious lift served experience.

This is how I learned to XCD ski close to 25 years ago (when I fit in both camps above), and how I intend to relearn to turn, so that I once again have a larger skill set to draw upon for extended tours in wilderness environments.

Either way you slice, the bottomline is there is no substitute for lots of time on your skis.

striding into turns is a good way to do it but remember that when you start turning your arm motion is opposite of what it is when you are kick and gliding. If you don't get this you will never be really stable.

When you are xc sking on your skinny metal edge skis try turning with your skis at least shoulder width apart, this forces you to weight both skis and it eliminates forming a V when you turn keeping your skis more paralell. I use this type turn on narrow hard trails to maintain speed. you can go real slow and not worry about tipping over, but it is also a good exersize to learn about weight distribution. There are a lot of ways to weight your skis that work but what you need is to have enough weight on each ski to set an edge or flex it.

Yeah I think it seems obvious about the poling, but maybe not to some. I need to keep an eye on my wife and see what she does.

I usually just keep my hands forward and use my poles to help my balance when needed. I know it's not the ideal way to ski but it's much more useful especially when you aren't on a wide open slope.