Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Howdy,

I run extremely hot when touring. I often ski in a hoody base layer and soft shell pants. When I get cold I try throwing on my mid layer but end up getting way too hot and sweating like a pig. I tried the Pataguci R1 and Arc’teryx Proton but those are way too hot and end up taking them off. Any recommendations to try for this season?

Thanks

Wool
TM

If you’re expending energy to move, you’re going to sweat. Or you’ll freeze. The middle ground is so narrow that it’s nearly impossible to avoid one extreme or another. (Try this at home. Set the thermostats to your ideal temperature. Then vary it by 2-3 degrees either side of ideal. Ideal is a very narrow range. It also changes depending on what you’re doing.)

A more practical goal away from temperature controlled spaces is comfort.

A base layer should touch the skin. This allows it to wick away sweat and (ideally) transport the moisture to a place where it can freely evaporate. But it has to do this without that evaporative cooling being apparent to the wearer. Wool is an ideal fibre for doing this because it retains its insulating properties (shields wearer from evaporative effect) when wet like cotton or synthetics do. So it’s performance is consistent.

This is why base layers are called “transport layers”. They only have one simple job to do… so they must be thin and form fitting as a priority. 120-200 gsm, the heavier one only if it is extremely cold.

In insulation layer comes next. This is an intermediate layer that should trap air, which is a very good insulator. Trap air. Not block it.

That air layer must be breathable. It must also be sufficiently voluminous to absorb sweat before it is expelled. Down is a great insulator in extreme cold but terrible in warmer conditions. Feathers get matted without the constant preening or oiling by a bird that we see in the fairer months.

The final layer can have different attributes… wind and moisture blocking on windy, wet days or fully permeable on colder dry days. Pit zips are a must either way because rarely do conditions and level of effort come into perfect alignment (very cold natural snow has high friction, making you work harder).

What this long preamble? Because you need to understand that the transport layer should never change. The intermediate layer will change with level of effort outdoor temperature. The outer layer MUST change with wind speed and humidity (wind chill). Straight temperature has little to do with the outer layer in a multi-layered system of dress.

So start with the right base and have a few outer layers. Then experiment until you find intermediate layerS that work best for you.

For me, it’s a loose open weave merino wool of various densities… As low as 200 gsm and as high as 400 gsm. The open weave 400 gsm layer can be used as combined mid-outer layer on windless days down to 20F. Otherwise, it’s used as a mid layer for temperatures down to -40F. Doesn’t get any lower than that in these parts.

My outer layer collection consists of three garments that are very different. ALL with pit zips. These work in combination with my bases and mids (from 120-120-lightest shell to 200-400-heaviest shell), so keep this in mind before applying my mid layer recommendations to whatever outer garments you’re using.

If you like a hoody base layer, try going with a hoody sun-shirt base layer. I’m assuming your typical hoody is heavier than that. Started using hoody sun shirts last year and really liked it. Your mid-layer might not feel so heavy.

I too sweat a lot.

"Terramar Men's Thermolator Climasense 4-Way Stretch Brushed Crew Neck Top" as base layer works for me - often I carry extra one and change when say, get to the top after a hike (cannot stand any type of wool next to my skin).
Then ArcTeryx Atom LT vest - for cross country often it is all I need.

Awesome Outdoor Reseach 1/4 zip echo shirt or very light polartec jacket goes in between when a bit colder - or 250 Smartwool/merino 1/4 zip shirt instead when even more cold or when I'm not moving a lot.

One of the 3 for downhill 3rd layer: Goretex hardshell, light softshell, insulated softshell (call it ski jacket).

Ask what time it is and you may get a treatise on how to build a watch.

Keeping it simple: wool.

There might be simple questions, but there are fewer simple answers.

skimrg wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 21, 2023 1:38 pm

cannot stand any type of wool next to my skin

Have you tried a good quality merino wool? SmartWool is the coarsest of these (not itchy for most people), Icebreaker is the finest (indistinguishable smoothness from cotton jersey). Either one costs about $80 for a LS lightweight (100-120 gsm)… $120 for a mid weight (150-200 gsm)… $250 for a heavy weight (400 gsm). SmartWool easier to find here in the states.

Filson (US brand out of Seattle, iirc) doesn’t yet have a wool suitable solution for skiing (very coarse wool, outer layers only, jacket cut… not ideal range of motion). But we’re talking north of $250 anyway, which is a lot for an outer layer because you typically need several different layers for good seasonal coverage… and the thought of spending $1k for an ensemble of jackets for recreational skiing can be off-putting for most folks.

Tried few brands (even googled least itchy wool), also tried putting it into the freezer first.
Nothing helps, cannot stand it on my upper body next to my skin - but I have number of smartwool/merino bottoms and I really like it.

If not for that I'd be using light, say 150 smartwool shirt as base layer, then OR Echo shirt or very light polartec when needed - or 250 smartwool over it when really cold.

Another option for a transport layer is a compression fit polypropylene or spandex. Yup… fits like a sausage skin and takes time getting used to. It wets out, which is something that needs to be considered when choosing a mid layer… tighter fitting and perhaps a bit thicker because of the absence of an insulating air layer.

The thicker knits of either material are comical to remove after a session. But they’re the only ones that offer any form of insulation.. the thinner ones don’t.

Dressing for the weather and activity is harder than choosing a pair of skis to buy… or which ones to use during a session. One can compensate with technique on skis… much harder to command the body to stop perspiring, or warm up, or dry out without it having a direct effect on pace and level of ambition. Plus, we have contingencies to worry about like staying warm if injured out in the middle of nowhere. Hasn’t happened to me… but there’s no guarantee that it never will.

Really, the whole thing requires a systems approach… except for the legs which are quite impervious to the cold because of muscle density and muscle mass. Those can be under dressed without much discomfort.