Xplore on Ice?

[Eastern Ian]

I'm tired of lugging my Crispi Evos up mountains when I feel they are more boot than I need. I see people mounting Xplore bindings on alpine width skis. My Question is, how much edge control does this system enable? Would I be in trouble if I came across an Icy section of trail. I'm also a bit concerned about hiking in them and how that will effect the Pin mechanism.

Johny has Piqued my interest in the Alpina Pioneer. I'm thinking that I could get a pair to replace my Old Snowpines which I still use on Cross country skis. I'd also try them on backcountry tours with 85mm waisted Factions. I haven't been able to find a pair available in my size, so that gives me more time to mull over the decision.

[fisheater]

Ian, I ski an Alico Ski March Norwegian welt UK Surplus version 75 mm boot. I can ski that boot with a 75 mm hardwire binding and a 86 mm underfoot ski in nice powder. I have not skied an Xplore system, but I doubt it offers more power than that system, the Xplore would be much lighter though. My point is that 86 mm underfoot is a lot for a leather boot. For anything other the perfect powder, 86 mm underfoot, means a plastic boot for me. I do know guys are skiing Voile Objectives with Xplore, but I have to believe it’s ideal conditions only. Perhaps @Stephen will pipe in?

[Manney]

Xplore boot soles are pretty stiff…. very resistant to torsion. Xplore isn’t a release binding… it will handle A LOT of torque without releasing. May or may not be an issue… depends on slope, pow, skill, and how much you like your knees. Ice isn’t a big concern there tho…

The wildcard for edge control in this case is the stiffness of the boot upper, ankle. An ALFA Free is a very stiff boot.

https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4512

Also, Pioneer Pro gets good DH marks in Johnny’s books.

[Stephen]

I would say ice with that width ski and Xplore would be “challenging.”
I have skied the Voile Objective (similar waist width to your ski) with Xplore and ALFA Free.
In powder, it’s fantastic.
On packed, hard snow, it’s work, and not that much fun.
For better or worse, here’s a sample of good conditions:

[Manney]

OP talking hard, icy sections…. Where setting an edge is harder. Your video is shot in totally different conditions…. 60” heavy, semi consolidated base. That snow looks sticky… warm… sticking to the baskets… rolling into balls… slowing you down to the point of imbalance.

Lots of other things to talk about other than boot… if the issue is edge control on ice for something like slalom skiing. Ski stiffness, risers/speed plates, edge angles. That can be more about achieving an “ice ski” setup… mostly in competitive environments. Different discussion than started by the OP. Mostly vanity bs and winning the gear whore war unless talking about competition.

If the goal is handling icy sections, boot with good ankle support and tuned edges is all that’s really needed. The rest is up to the skier.

[Tom M]

I'm tired of lugging my Crispi Evos up mountains when I feel they are more boot than I need. I see people mounting Xplore bindings on alpine width skis. My Question is, how much edge control does this system enable? Would I be in trouble if I came across an Icy section of trail.

Johny has Piqued my interest in the Alpina Pioneer. I'm thinking that I could get a pair to replace my Old Snowpines which I still use on Cross country skis. I'd also try them on backcountry tours with 85mm waisted Factions. I haven't been able to find a pair available in my size, so that gives me more time to mull over the decision.

Skiing an Xplore / Alpina Pioneer on hard ice would be similar to other cross country ski / soft boot / binding combinations, which is saying, maybe not the best tool in the box under those conditions. When the surface is hard enough that a boot won't leave an impression when walking on the surface, then most would probably prefer an alpine setup with stiff plastic boots for edge control. There is enough lateral control with the Xplore / Alfa Free that I can easily slide slip, parallel turn and certainly survival ski down an icy slope, but carving would be difficult, especially on a wide ski. I think that an Xplore setup is a great touring option, and whether or not you could leave your Crispi Evo setup at home would depend on your expectations and the purpose of the tour. I always like to ski with the lightest gear I can get away with, but that does come with some limitations. We are currently in the season where we have ice in the morning and in the shade and on Northerly aspects, but great soft spring snow as the sun warms it up. The Xplore setup is great for spring corn, but you have to time it just right, pick appropriate angles and aspects. I guess I need to put together a video segment on a cold icy morning skiing my Xplore system. It won't be pretty carving that's for sure, but maybe it will help to demonstrate the advantages and weakness of skiing an Xplore system on ice.

[Manney]

Would I be in trouble if I came across an Icy section of trail.

Three key words… icy (not ice)… section (not entire tour)… trail (not GS slope). Qualified by “if”… implies a possibility, not certainty. Emphazing for ppl who don’t get the nuances of the OP.

[telerat]

I have seen a few descriptions from people using Xplore on alpine skis. One used Alfa Skaget with Trab Sintesi (75mm waist) and said it was nice in soft snow and worked relatively well on steeper and hard snow with parallel turns, but was otherwise not a good match. One had tried Alfa Free/Xplore on Moonlight Northern Light 84, and found it a bad match, while enjoying Rabb 68. Rabb 68, Falketind 62 or similar sounds like the best match for all-round use, and even then Alfa Free or similar would be best on hard snow/ice.

Regarding Alpina Pioneer Pro; I have only tested it on the foot in shop, but to me it felt softer and less supportive than Alfa Skaget. And while Skaget is supportive for a pure leather boot, it is quite a bit less supportive than Alfa Free and nowhere near a plastic telemark boot. I am looking forward to testing my Falketind 62 with Alfa Skaget and see how far I can use that combination, but I have Scarpa TX, Meidjo and wider skis for steeper and harder tours. I am very tempted though to buy Alfa Free, but it bore down on my toes when I tested it in shop so I haven't dared buying it so far, and hoping for a new version to come.

[jyw5]

I have not used the Xplore setups but I think I can provide some helpful information.

I have spent alot of time skiing hard boiler plate on BC nordic setups. Keep your skins on for these sections especially when its steep. The steeper and harder the snow (wind/sun crust), the wider and longer the skins will need to be. Most of my spring and summer touring in Alaska for years was spent skiing this type of snow for thousands of vertical ft... many times, I would have skins on the entire time. I used my Fischer S112/NNN BC with EZ skins or full skins with tip attachments. S112 has a 78mm waist.
And in slightly better conditions, used Asnes Skog (56mm waist). My standard route was 10-12miles for 3600-4600ft with ratio of hiking/skiing depending on time of yr and snowpack. I found the S112 to be perfect and well rounded. Skogs performed better for long flat sections that were covered with snow. But when those sections were gone in the summer, the S112 was best for less than ideal hard higher altitude cold glacier snow.

As for hiking, if you are concerned about the boot connection to the bindings (as I was a bit concerned about the toe bar on NNN BC), you can slip a pair of Kahtoola microspikes over them. Just make sure to size up so it fits the boots. This solves 2 problems... grippy on ice/snow and protects your boots. Alot of the approaches also involved boulders, dirt, and rocks. Never had a problem in 6 seasons.

On more demanding terrain, my S125 (95mm waist) was terrible on icy descents even with full skins. Narrower, stiff skis seem to slightly do better. Skins on is the key. We do that alot as a gold standard in backcountry skiing with AT bindings when there are variable difficult conditions (steep and icy, open crevasses)... free heel with full skins with plastic boots. Im able to carve some parallel turns with this setup. For your nordic setup, you can maybe carve wide arcs on steep terrain if you hit a softer and more forgiving patch but generally not much edge control is possible if the snow is truly hard... regardless of what setup you use. In those cases, proficient kick and step turns work well.

Deciding between soft vs hard boots always comes down to the fact that 90% of your journey may be uphill and soft boots may prevail when its technically possible (depending on personal ability) to ski down. Its much easier and often faster to ski down with plastic boots. Almost the same when conditions are ideal. But going uphill is alot faster with less weight/bulk (imo. I know there was another thread/discussion where this wasnt the case. but for me 9lbs vs. 16lbs on your feet makes a huge difference). Also, for long single day tours, soft boots are way more comfortable.

In my experience, I found it possible to ski down *most* of the time with soft leather boots. Plastic boots reserved for demanding terrain and long multiday tours and climbs (ski mountaineering... crampons/boots/axe for the summits). Also when the entire mtn is covered with snow (as hiking rock and scree in plastic boots really sucks). *My* philosophy is that AT setups are most appropriate for this type of skiing and sometimes the use of approach skis with mountaineering boots. Just my thoughts... (others will disagree and thats fine).

I think there will be a learning curve for you if you havent done much skiing on steep and icy terrain on nordic bindings and skis (regardless of setup type)... I personally dont see an advantage in using alpine skis for nordic boots/bindings. Mount the nordic bindings on many of the fine bc nordic skis that are out there.

Have fun!

[Manney]

I think there will be a learning curve for you if you havent done much skiing on steep and icy terrain on nordic bindings and skis (regardless of setup type)... I personally dont see an advantage in using alpine skis for nordic boots/bindings. Mount the nordic bindings on many of the fine bc nordic skis that are out there.

Old school DH skis werent much different from todays mid width bc touring skis. Little heavier… bit less rocker. That’s about it. Anyone skiing before mid 90s (before parabolics) will understand this.