Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Good sunday folks!

I've been intrigued to read the growing library of positive Xplore reviews. I'm sure I'm speaking on behalf of many. Thanks in particular to @Tom M and @Johnny for first class material.

Now what I find particuarly interesting, is the positive feedback with respect to XC performance of the Xplore boots - despite their stiff soles. In fact, the xplore boots are rated top for XC in @Johnny's fabulous boot rating table (below),- and above their equivalent BC and 75mm versions.

How do we make sense of this? Traditionally, XC boots have been associated with flexible soles to enable kicking the ground with the ball of your foot. This has been the gold standard through the norms of 75mm, NNN-bc and NNN.

With Xplore and their stiff soles, this gold standard now seems to be up for question. Are we now to be relying mainly on the flexor to kick the ground?

What is going on? Have we been fooled all along?

Interested to hear your thoughts.
PS - Kindly requesting that attempts on pertaining Newtonian lectures be held in the physics thread.
PS2 - Not considering reliability, which is still on the table.

Well, that table is one person’s opinion, so I’m not sure we can take it as the final word. Perhaps @Johnny has a particular preference that leads him to this conclusion and others might not reach the same conclusion. And I will say that he seems excessively enthusiastic about Xplore (no offense @Johnny !). I’m not sure if @Tom M has concluded that the stiffer boots are better for XC. In fact, I think he said he’d use the ultra stiff Alfa Free for downhill focused tours, and another Xplore boot for kick and glide focused tours.

I think an interesting piece of evidence for this question would be what XC racers choose (classic racers, not skate). If stiffer soles are truly better for XC kick & glide then I think racers would use the stiffest boots they can get. I realize racing is very different from BC, but if we’re trying to determine the best sort of boot for kick and glide, irrespective of other elements of performance, I think racers would tells us. Unfortunately, I have no idea what racers choose.

I have not tried Xplore yet and I have not tried enough boots to give an opinion.

TheMusher wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:57 am

Good sunday folks!

I've been intrigued to read the growing library of positive Xplore reviews. I'm sure I'm speaking on behalf of many. Thanks in particular to @Tom M and @Johnny for first class material.

Now what I find particuarly interesting, is the positive feedback with respect to XC performance of the Xplore boots - despite their stiff soles. In fact, the xplore boots are rated top for XC in @Johnny's fabulous boot rating table (below),- and above their equivalent BC and 75mm versions.

How do we make sense of this? Traditionally, XC boots have been associated with flexible soles to enable kicking the ground with the ball of your foot. This has been the gold standard through the norms of 75mm, NNN-bc and NNN.

With Xplore and their stiff soles, this gold standard now seems to be up for question. Are we now to be relying mainly on the flexor to kick the ground?

What is going on? Have we been fooled all along?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

PS - Kindly requesting that attempts on pertaining Newtonian lectures be held in the physics thread.

Not sure what is meant by “kick the ground”. Two of the bindings use sole stiffness for pivot control. One might use sole stiffness to address other needs beyond motion control.

NN bindings rely on it exclusively.

NNN BC has more scope for sole flex because pivot control is managed differently. The fact that it spawned from NNN (its just an oversized version of that classic ski binding) may have influenced boot manufacturers to maintain some sole flex to ease the transition from classic to BC use.

Xplore seems to take a different approach to motion control. The boot pivots in the binding higher up and slightly further back. So that portion of the sole needs to be strong. A bit of extra material in the sole and welt (close to where the pins are) might translate to a stiffer feeling. The movement control of the flexor raises the question whether sole stiffness is a control feature or one that is simply a design constraint of the attachment point. It might just be the latter…

I'm not in a position to make an informed comment on Xplore boots, as I have never tried any on. However, as someone who practices both alpine and nordic touring I would certainly not welcome the same feeling in a nordic touring boot as in an alpine boot/binding in touring mode. It would be tolerable for short tours/day tours but not for long-distance touring. If the Xplore boots do indeed have very stiff soles, combined with increased lateral stiffness, then their suitability for distance nordic touring would be approaching that of Garmont Excursion/Scarpa T4 etc. (both of which I have).......namely almost zero. You might as well put alpine boots and Dynafit-type bindings on your nordic skis.

In my opinion, for tours of 20 to 40km per day over (nordic) mountainous terrain, the fit of the boot is FAR more important than the boot/binding combination. In other words, take the boot which fits you best and then choose the binding norm to go with it, rather than deciding first on a boot/binding norm and then trying to find a boot which fits.

I would also be wary of placing too much weight on the opinions of one or two individuals regarding ski boots. With all due respect towards the members concerned for taking the trouble to formulate and publish their findings, there are variables to be considered. Are their feet similar to yours/mine? Do they normally ski over the same kind of terrain as you or I? (The "Cross-Country" in the above table says nothing about the kind of country crossed). Are the average snow conditions where they live comparable to where you or I live or normally tour?

In spite of my scepticism, I'm not a total Luddite when it comes to new technology and I will certainly try some different models of the boots when I'm in Norway in February/March in order to form my own opinion of them.

For those that don’t know @Johnny spends way more time on snow than most of us. From only a couple of videos I’ve seen he is also an elite skier. While his opinions may be unique, they come from both a skill point of view and a time on snow point of view most of us will never have. So while his opinion is unique, they are quite valid.
As an example, he is no fan of the cable. I understand why he is not a fan of the cable. I will never be the skier he is, I am 61, live in SE Michigan, and spend way too much time at work. The cable allows me to be a competent downhill Telemark skier. His skiing is so far beyond mine, he doesn’t need those cables!
You will have a much greater understanding if you read what @Johnny writes and accept it as coming from a very knowledgeable guy. You may not reach a level to come to the same understanding.
Oh, I think he lives enthusiasm. Please don’t make him a target, his posts are valuable additions.

Good points.

Jurassien wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:30 am

However, as someone who practices both alpine and nordic touring I would certainly not welcome the same feeling in a nordic touring boot as in an alpine boot/binding in touring mode. It would be tolerable for short tours/day tours but not for long-distance touring. If the Xplore boots do indeed have very stiff soles, combined with increased lateral stiffness, then their suitability for distance nordic touring would be approaching that of Garmont Excursion/Scarpa T4 etc. (both of which I have).......namely almost zero.

You make a good point that highlights different approaches to telemarking.

Some see telemarking as a means to an end (an effective way to traverse slope/powder). Others see it as a branch of the sport onto itself (goal is all about perfecting a style of turn).

I think it all depends on your starting point: XC or DH.

fisheater wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:34 am

You will have a much greater understanding if you read what @Johnny writes and accept it as coming from a very knowledgeable guy. You may not reach a level to come to the same understanding.
Oh, I think he lives enthusiasm. Please don’t make him a target, his posts are valuable additions.

If your comments were directed at me, let me point out that I'm not taking a swipe at anyone. I know nothing about the member concerned, how much time he spends on the snow, or if he is an "elite skier", and I have not seen any videos he has made. Nor does any of that matter. I expressed the opinion that I don't want a Dynafit-type feeling for nordic touring. I'm also wary of accepting anyone's opinion on skiing matters if it doesn't clearly relate to the type of skiing I practice - as well as being generally reluctant to allow my purchasing decisions to be influenced by what I read on the internet.

I take note of opinions expressed, but what sways me (one way or the other) is noting how those opinions relate to my own needs. And apropos experience: I have been practicing nordic touring (and alpine touring) for several decades - so I do have a bit of understanding of those activities and know what works/doesn't work (for me) and where some improvements might be desirable.

snow-mark wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:30 am

I’m not sure if @Tom M has concluded that the stiffer boots are better for XC. In fact, I think he said he’d use the ultra stiff Alfa Free for downhill focused tours, and another Xplore boot for kick and glide focused tours.

Agree though! Although the fact that Tom chooses Xplore over his nnn-bc/75mm tells me something. I think also Theme, who I believe is quite a prolific BC skier, has made a case for xplore on XC trips. Correct me if I'm wrong

But that's my motivation for starting this thread - to get feedback from more users, in addition to the super-users (which I appreciate).

snow-mark wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:30 am

I think an interesting piece of evidence for this question would be what XC racers choose (classic racers, not skate). If stiffer soles are truly better for XC kick & glide then I think racers would use the stiffest boots they can get. I realize racing is very different from BC, but if we’re trying to determine the best sort of boot for kick and glide, irrespective of other elements of performance, I think racers would tells us. Unfortunately, I have no idea what racers choose.

I hear you, but I'm not sure how relevant this would be. I've been racing myself, but races typically last max 2.5 hrs. For such high intensity, I think there is no doubt that flexible soles will allow you to maximize speed and performance.

But what about those BC trips of 15-40km per day on ungroomed snow in flat & rolling terrain, multiple days in a row? For this purpose I've typically relied on Crispi Stetind and been perfectly happy, but can't deny that I'm curious about the potential benefits of more stiff, supportive soles for such extended backcountry trips. I can aboslutely see a case for stiffer soles salvaging legs and feet during such trips.

So yeah, curious to hear more thoughts & experiences.

Jurassien wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:30 am

I'm not in a position to make an informed comment on Xplore boots, as I have never tried any on. However, as someone who practices both alpine and nordic touring I would certainly not welcome the same feeling in a nordic touring boot as in an alpine boot/binding in touring mode. It would be tolerable for short tours/day tours but not for long-distance touring.

This has always been my stance as well, but it's hard to ignore all the positive reviews. If the sole stiffness is somewhere between typical nnn-bc boots and T4, would you still prefer the nnn-bc? How about when towing a heavy pulk?

I'm not sure, so think it's worthy a consideration.

Jurassien wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:30 am

In my opinion, for tours of 20 to 40km per day over (nordic) mountainous terrain, the fit of the boot is FAR more important than the boot/binding combination. In other words, take the boot which fits you best and then choose the binding norm to go with it, rather than deciding first on a boot/binding norm and then trying to find a boot which fits.

Right! Hard to disagree. But when there are enough alternatives within each norm to find a perfectly comfortable boot, what norm are you going to recommend to your friends & family (& yourself) for such BC touring?

I'm finding myself having to give recommendations, and I'm increasingly uncertain which recommendation to give.