Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Well, I refrain for years in telling this, but here it is; don't buy OAC skis...

You know why? Because they are copies of Altai skis concept.

Once upon a time, a bunch of guys worked together at Karhu. 2 guys developed the Meta, which were marketed before Karhu let them down. Those 2 guys decided to follow the lead and developed the Altai Hok (and all the others later). They went back to their ex-boss in Finland and asked to distribute the Hoks. There was then a busisness agreement, till... they made their own copy that they started to sell and distribute them, cutting the grass from underneath Altai maker feet...

Voilà. I think we should all know about that... I guess that kind of practice is more immoral than illegal...

I don't know about legality issues, but they had the right idea about wider skis. I think they are the future of xcD. More fun, more of the time.

Legality issue: like boat shape, ski shape aren't subject to copyright I think... But the concept? I don't know. There is probably a wide grey zone...

Anyway I agree with you Al. Those skis make xcD more accessible, less technical.

But you have to consider the morality issue; if you know someone «cheated», I guess you shouldn't encourage him...

Whatever.

The descendants of Trog the Mastondon Hunter are still pissed that they’re not receiving royalty payments from every skin manufacturer.

The shape of a ski is only one aspect of design. It has to work in concert with the materials, layup, and workmanship.

Anyone simply copying another company’s design will always be one step behind. Their R&D and IP will be crap. Mediocrity is their reward.

The challenge for innovators is to price their products fairly. This increases the value proposition to the customer. Nobody will buy a $300 knock off when you can get the real thing for $350.

I agree but you forget about a couple of things...

OAC, on a business level, is much stronger than Altai; they are former (associated with, coming from, part of... not sure) Karhu. Anti Titola is the head — a sort of parrain in the ski industry. Altai is a small cie, owned by passionate skiers... not the same on an economical level.

OAC distribution web is well developed; cutting Altai from it was probably a tough situation... I guess Altai had to rebuild their own web throughout Europe...

Not sure about your last statement; remember the product is targeted towards a vast market. Most people will take the cheaper version. This is why you see OAC skis at MEC, Sports Experts, etc...

Not unlike the saga of parabolic skis, which Exel developed but never profited from. Meyerhoffer surfboards focused on the same concept, which was scientifically sound, but didn’t catch.

Start ups and small players always face challenges of competing scale. They can get around this by innovating and dynamically responding to customers. The latter is a unique advantage… big players can’t do this because they’ve already committed to tooling and are holding massive inventory.

There’s a lot of brand loyalty out there. It gets rather silly with people putting brand ahead of other things… even their own needs (short and long term).

Any company plainly ripping off a smaller player for their design is already on a downward path. Taking a great idea and making it better is one way around this… the world wouldn’t be the same if this hadn’t been done a million times over. It’s a form of progress through continual development.

I agree the whole thing sucks on a certain level. And yes, cheap usually wins in the minds of uninformed customers. The internet age reduces this somewhat as even small players can get their messages out.

Not disagreeing with anything you said. Just another take on the situation.

I also get and understand where you are heading. Agree too... But I am a bit frustrated because I know those guys commitment at Altai. I take it a bit personal... I guess I shouldn't.

I have skied and still own the Metas as well as a little longer version called the Karvers. While these 'skis' can be fun and practical, I've always regarded them as an evolutionary step towards something better. The Hoks are a big improvement over the Metas but still, IMO, a step in the evolution of skis with permanently glued skins embedded in the base. I was surprised when Altai came out with the Koms with their scales instead of the embedded skin.
I just bought the gf a new classic xc setup this season. the skis that were recommended by the shop (I don't know much about track skiing) have skins embedded in the base in a very clever and effective way. She says they have great k+g. My point is that while the Meta/Altai guys hatched a great idea with short skis with embedded skins, it was an idea with more applications and adaptations than they could evolve into marketable products in a short amount of time by themselves. So now, others have started moving things forward like OAC or Marquette Backcountry skis or even now large ski manufacturers who make XC skis with similar skin technology IMO.

Well I hope they don't lose too much market share to them.

40 years ago I had a pair of xc skis with embedded strips of skin like material. i shuffled about in them for a while.

Did Karhu make the Boreal/Karver/Meta that LL Bean sold 30 years ago?

Altai didn't see this coming?