Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

I'm new to Nordic BC skiing, and frankly still have a lot to learn at the resorts as well. I live in a mountainous area of N Ca and after much prodding by co workers last year started going out on logging roads and moderate terrain on a pair of Fischer Country Crown 210s with 3pins and had a ton of fun..loved it. This year a co worker loaned me his 179 length Outtabounds 88/68/78 with Voile 3pins which I've been using all winter. I've been using an Alico Skate leather boot which Im sticking with for now. (He also loaned me a T2..but that's another story)

I'm ready to buy my own ski and initially planned on the Excursion 88 being that I've enjoyed the Outtabounds. My biggest complaint is how much slip I get with the Outtabounds. They are quite cambered and do glide nice, but even on moderate hills I find myself cussing them on climbs. I have tried a 205 10th Mtn on the same slopes and had more grip. I'm not ready for skins but surrounded each weekend by enough people on AT gear/skins (there is 3-4K of vertical for the taking) that I understand the limitations of scales

So before I buy I'm wondering if the Excursion 88 the exact same ski as the Outtabounds or if the flex and camber has changed at all? If so is it different enough to improve this trait for me? I know the scale pattern is different on the 2018 98 as I've compared them side by side. Assume it's the same on the 88? If so Is that enough to make a profound difference?

I am 5,11" about 155 lbs, I wonder if I'm just too light for the ski..for Fischer in general? I'm told Fischers are known for being stiff. I don't have enough technique to critique how they turn..but Ive been out enough times now that I have experienced lots of different conditions and familiar with how they behave and glide. Other than the slip I'm having fun and trying not to over analyze. I've had some recommendations for the 98 as well. I've read the posts here on both skis so many times I know many of you by name and what skis you have lol...and familiar with the trade offs and pros and cons of length, flex width etc. I research heavily. I feel like the 88 is a good first ski for what I have been doing so far...touring roads and working on turns on moderate slopes when the opportunity is there, but if it is going to slip like the Outtabounds I wouldn't be happy.

Thanks for any input, really enjoy reading the comments here and learned a lot from all of the shared info.

Welcome Zamdrang!
Let us see whether I can help you more than confuse you!

Zamdrang wrote: I live in a mountainous area of N Ca

What are the snow conditions like?

I'm ready to buy my own ski and initially planned on the Excursion 88 being that I've enjoyed the Outtabounds. My biggest complaint is how much slip I get with the Outtabounds. They are quite cambered and do glide nice, but even on moderate hills I find myself cussing them on climbs.

The current 88 is stiff and has significant camber as well. Though the current "Off-Track Crown" is a much more aggressive scale pattern, and it also has the "Easy-Skin" kicker skin attachment.
However- part of the reason I asked about the snow is whether the snow is conducive to scale performance...

I have tried a 205 10th Mtn on the same slopes and had more grip.

Which "10th Mtn"? The most recent "XCD 10th Mtn"? Or- the "Tour 10th Mtn"?
The Outtabounds is only 179cm? That is massive difference in length...

So before I buy I'm wondering if the Excursion 88 the exact same ski as the Outtabounds or if the flex and camber has changed at all? If so is it different enough to improve this trait for me? I know the scale pattern is different on the 2018 98 as I've compared them side by side. Assume it's the same on the 88? If so Is that enough to make a profound difference?

I can tell you that the base is the same on the current 88/98.
Cannot tell you for sure if the current 88 flex pattern is the same as the old Outtabounds- it has been a decade since I had one underfoot!
Woodseron has both the 88 and the Outtabounds- he should be able to confirm this for you.

I am 5,11" about 155 lbs, I wonder if I'm just too light for the ski..for Fischer in general? I'm told Fischers are known for being stiff.

I weigh 185lbs and have a 199cm 88- I love it. I need grip wax or the kicker skin to climb anything beyond about 15% slope.

I don't have enough technique to critique how they turn..but Ive been out enough times now that I have experienced lots of different conditions and familiar with how they behave and glide. Other than the slip I'm having fun and trying not to over analyze. I've had some recommendations for the 98 as well.

I don't own a 98 but it is stiff and cambered as well.

I currently do similiar skiing on Alpina Discovery (vintage 2012) skis in the NE Oregon Blue Mountains, but Have tried the Excursion 88's (available for rent here). I like the Excursion 88's and would buy them if I needed skis and/or the Excursions were available at a sale price. They are just as fast as the narrower Alpina skis, and climb reasonably well without the Easy-Skins, but I think you would like the Easy-skins. The pattern is different than the older Fischer skis, which used the "Mountain Crown" pattern more aimed at turning.

Unless you are breaking trail on soft snow (depends on where in Northern CA you are skiing), you might benefit from a narrower ski--one with 68-79 tip width. We have very soft snow here except late in the season, and that was why I was trying the Excursions. They didn't make enough difference to justify purchasing.

lilcliffy wrote:Welcome Zamdrang!
Let us see whether I can help you more than confuse you!

Zamdrang wrote: I live in a mountainous area of N Ca

What are the snow conditions like?

This will be hard for me to explain being new to this but temps tend to hover around freezing and not much colder. The coldest day I've skied this winter was 21F. I've experienced everything from fresh cold powder to a light rain making a slushy top layer. Definitely on the wetter side. If we get a fresh dump and you want to enjoy cold powder you need to hit it first thing as it won't last and quickly turns wetter and compacts quickly. Even after a night of freeze it'll usually be softening by mid morning. Typical PNW snow from what I'm told. Now it's limited to higher elevation (7kish) spring conditions...my skier co workers say it will shortly be corn snow up high. If you're curious this is my stomping ground: https://www.nps.gov/lavo/index.htm

Zamdrang wrote: I'm ready to buy my own ski and initially planned on the Excursion 88 being that I've enjoyed the Outtabounds. My biggest complaint is how much slip I get with the Outtabounds. They are quite cambered and do glide nice, but even on moderate hills I find myself cussing them on climbs.

lilcliffy wrote:The current 88 is stiff and has significant camber as well. Though the current "Off-Track Crown" is a much more aggressive scale pattern, and it also has the "Easy-Skin" kicker skin attachment.
However- part of the reason I asked about the snow is whether the snow is conducive to scale performance...

I have experienced cold powder where they were not good but also softer older snow where I had better grip. I have definitely pushed angles where it was skin territory and had to zig zag to get up, but regardless in general I slip more than those around me, and have had other skiers comment about it. I noticed the pattern on the 98 looked much more aggressive as well. The climbs I'm doing are shorter so far, so I can see skins being a real pain..but until I try them that is speculation

I have tried a 205 10th Mtn on the same slopes and had more grip.

lilcliffy wrote:Which "10th Mtn"? The most recent "XCD 10th Mtn"? Or- the "Tour 10th Mtn"?
The Outtabounds is only 179cm? That is massive difference in length...

Yes the Outtas are 179. The 10th mtn were the Tour. I agree very different overall.. but the only other ski I've tried on the same slopes.

So before I buy I'm wondering if the Excursion 88 the exact same ski as the Outtabounds or if the flex and camber has changed at all? If so is it different enough to improve this trait for me? I know the scale pattern is different on the 2018 98 as I've compared them side by side. Assume it's the same on the 88? If so Is that enough to make a profound difference?

lilcliffy wrote:I can tell you that the base is the same on the current 88/98.
Cannot tell you for sure if the current 88 flex pattern is the same as the old Outtabounds- it has been a decade since I had one underfoot!
Woodseron has both the 88 and the Outtabounds- he should be able to confirm this for you.

Cool was hoping to hear from someone who has both as well. I flexed them in a store this winter but it was before I was aware of these details, they seemed a tad softer but I don't trust my memory anymore!

I am 5,11" about 155 lbs, I wonder if I'm just too light for the ski..for Fischer in general? I'm told Fischers are known for being stiff.

lilcliffy wrote:I weigh 185lbs and have a 199cm 88- I love it. I need grip wax or the kicker skin to climb anything beyond about 15% slope.

I have pushed them beyond that for sure..but as I mentioned one day I ended up on a moderate climb with two skiers on 98s...I didn't know them.. when we got to the top they commented I seemed to be slipping a lot more than they were. This has happened more than once and after many outings seems to be a theme...hence my debate.

Cool! Glad to hear you like them so much. I've found some on sale and may just pull the trigger and see for myself. The fat ski promoters are many. But based on what I've experienced I'm not convinced...maybe someday but as a first ski seem a bit to specialized for my needs. It's funny the older skiers see me on the Outtabounds and make "those are downhill skis" comments... the younger crowd thinks they are narrow touring skis. What would you say is the 88s ideal niche?

I don't have enough technique to critique how they turn..but Ive been out enough times now that I have experienced lots of different conditions and familiar with how they behave and glide. Other than the slip I'm having fun and trying not to over analyze. I've had some recommendations for the 98 as well.

lilcliffy wrote:I don't own a 98 but it is stiff and cambered as well.

Thanks for the response, not confusing at all. I've read many of your posts and find them very helpful! Sorry for the quote format...still figuring out how to multi quote.

satsuma wrote:I currently do similiar skiing on Alpina Discovery (vintage 2012) skis in the NE Oregon Blue Mountains, but Have tried the Excursion 88's (available for rent here). I like the Excursion 88's and would buy them if I needed skis and/or the Excursions were available at a sale price. They are just as fast as the narrower Alpina skis, and climb reasonably well without the Easy-Skins, but I think you would like the Easy-skins. The pattern is different than the older Fischer skis, which used the "Mountain Crown" pattern more aimed at turning.

Unless you are breaking trail on soft snow (depends on where in Northern CA you are skiing), you might benefit from a narrower ski--one with 68-79 tip width. We have very soft snow here except late in the season, and that was why I was trying the Excursions. They didn't make enough difference to justify purchasing.

Thanks for the response...sounds like we have very similar snow conditions. A good sale price is another reason I have been considering them. I have used the Outtabounds to break trail in knee deep powder and loved every minute..I don't doubt there are better tools for the job but I had a blast. I think I may get them and hope the pattern is the improvement I'm hoping for.

As an update, I found a decent deal on the 88s picked them up. So far I have just compared them in the house

The 88s seem to have just a touch more camber. The Outtabounds may just have slightly less sagged a little... does this happen with skis? Tough to photograph without exaggerating. The 88 is the ski closest to the camera.

The flex feels slightly stiffer on the 88s. Its just a tad easier to flex the Outtabounds (also age maybe?). By hand I can never get Outtabounds to touch flat in the center, I can the 88. (wasnt able to photograph this)

The Nordic rocker is much more pronounced on the 88s. When compressed the tips of the 88s start to open about 3"further down the ski compared to the Outtabounds.

The scale pattern on the 88 is more aggressive and 3-4" longer on each end, Interestingly it feels more aggressive in the center and slightly less aggressive towards each end.

From what i've read more nordic rocker should result in better turn initiation and more aggressive/longer scales should climb better (snow conditions dependent of course) Fair assumption?

Zamdrang wrote:From what i've read more nordic rocker should result in better turn initiation and more aggressive/longer scales should climb better (snow conditions dependent of course) Fair assumption?

Ditto!

Zamdrang wrote: The 88s seem to have just a touch more camber. The Outtabounds may just have slightly less sagged a little... does this happen with skis?

Yes- cambered XC skis do lose their camber through many seasons of use. (Some cambered XC skis are so soft they can lose their camber in a single season! )

The flex feels slightly stiffer on the 88s. Its just a tad easier to flex the Outtabounds (also age maybe?). By hand I can never get Outtabounds to touch flat in the center, I can the 88.

I am bit confused here...88 is stiffer? This could be design, or it could too be a result of much use...
The Outtabound is stiffer underfoot than the 88?

The Nordic rocker is much more pronounced on the 88s. When compressed the tips of the 88s start to open about 3"further down the ski compared to the Outtabounds.

This will reduce the glide surface of the 88 on consolidated snow- but it will reduce the effective edge, improving turn initiation and radius.

The scale pattern on the 88 is more aggressive and 3-4" longer on each end, Interestingly it feels more aggressive in the center and slightly less aggressive towards each end.

From what i've read more nordic rocker should result in better turn initiation and more aggressive/longer scales should climb better (snow conditions dependent of course) Fair assumption?

Yes- fair assumption.

lilcliffy - Thanks for the response, yes the 88s seems very slightly stiffer, both squeezing by hand and underfoot (other than the last little bit of flex -the Outtabounds take more force to close). But other than then the rocker and scales perhaps I am exaggerating differences that are more similar than not.

After many outings this winter, and being honest about what I was doing.. mostly touring up to come down... and talking to skier friends and reading the comments here from you and others discussing the E99/109/78/88/98/112, Eon/Epoch/Annum I think I what I am experiencing/not liking is the double camber. Both the 88 and the Outtabounds are double camber correct?

I'm getting more confident but still using stem turns and controlling my speed with the wedge on moderate slopes. I find the Outtabounds almost beyond my ability to control, and have had some white knuckle moments I don't wish to repeat. I can get them to turn, but never really feel in control in steeper terrain (comparable to blues or greens) When weighting the inside edge the ski oscillates laterally if that makes sense. It's better with the T2, but it sure seems like a lot of boot for stem/wedge turns. I just cant help but think the 88 wont be much different in this regard.

I'm about 155 lbs, am I just too light to squish the ski adequately? Would a softer single camber would be easier to control and a little more forgiving? 98/Epoch?

Appreciate any thoughts

Hi Z, my 2cent rant:

Zamdrang wrote:being honest about what I was doing.. mostly touring up to come down...

As you have been figuring, the 88s is a more highly cambered TOURING ski (with enough sidecut for decent turning control). Nobody said XCD is easy. particularly telemarking on more XCish type skis. You need to get the technique down (i recommend practise at the resort with easy turning skis without scales).

If you are mostly yoyo-ing, I would recommend adding a turn-oriented ski to your quiver. You can go full on and get something full alpine like the Voile Vector which would go along nicely with you T2s. You will be able to progress into the steeps with those....with diligent pratice.

If you want to stick with XCD, the more alpiny you go along the spectrum, the more easily you will control them on the down: S98 ok, Epoch softer and easier to turn, but also consider the Annum, especially if you have powder conditions. The Asnes fans among us will suggest similar spec skis from them. Get them if you have the money to spare and the desire is strong.

Zamdrang wrote:I can get them to turn, but never really feel in control in steeper terrain (comparable to blues or greens)

Sounds normal. Steepness is one aspect, snow conditions another. I'd say Teleing xcD skis on anything but semi-deep powder and perhsp soft alpine corn requires some advanced skills.

Zamdrang wrote:Would a softer single camber would be easier to control and a little more forgiving? 98/Epoch?

Absolutely, as mentionned above. Good luck!

bgregoire wrote:Nobody said XCD is easy. particularly telemarking or more XC type skis. You need to get the technique down (i recommend practise at the resort with easy turning skis without scales).

....


S98 ok, Epoch softer and easier to turn, but also consider the Annum, especially if you have powder conditions.

Requoted for truth. I learned this the hard way. Thought I'd nail it after years of shredding the gnar all over the place in all terrain but... nope. Years later, I am feeling very accomplished. It's a long road, with a satisfying ending.

The Madshus are softer and slightly more easier to manhandle than the Fischers which need more focused power in a smaller sweetspot and are more tuned for distance.