Why not the telemark?

[lilcliffy]

My mind became aware this season that there is a huge over-emphasis on the "telemark" on this site and many others.

The "telemark" is just one of many, many, Nordic downhill turning techniques.

Modern, plastic, powerful "Telemark" tech allows a skier to use the "telemark" turn in most any down-hill skiing context. This approach just doesn't apply equally on light-duty xcd tech- at least not in my limited experience...

On light-duty, traditional Nordic tech, the telemark is really only effective when fore-aft stability is effective (i.e. on relatively deep soft snow). When the snow is hard, dense, icy, side-to-side stability is more effective when you are on xcd gear. Stems, Christies and full-on parallel turns can be made with Nordic boots-bindings- and are much more effective than the "telemark" when side-to-side stability is more important than fore-aft.

We also focus a lot on how "hard" it is to learn the telemark turn...I often wonder whether part of this is related to trying to used the telemark when it is not an effective turning technique? Personally, I find the telemark "easy" when either the conditions are ideal- OR, my boots and bindings are powerful enough that the conditions don't matter. Downhill skiing on XC tech has taught me to only use the telemark when it is "easy"- or rather- most effective. When the telemark turn is not effective- there are many other techniques that are...

IMHO- the telemark is the most effective and efficient downhill turn in relatively deep soft snow- and it cannot be done on "Alpine" tech.

Nordic skiing is free-heel with a boot that allows a natural metatarsal flex. The "telemark" is just one skill in the Nordic tool kit...

We focus a lot on the "telemark", I guess perhaps because this site is called "Telemark Talk".

But- this site has at least become a forum for Nordic, free-heel skiing- and from that perspective, the "telemark" is just a turn...

When would you use the telemark turn? AND- when would you choose NOT to use the telemark turn?

[anrothar]

Well there's my problem I suppose! When I've gotten up the gumption to try it, I've been trying to learn the Telemark turn on relatively firm snow, and been struggling. Stem turns and even parallel turns are easy on that type of snow, with just a little bit of knowledge and practice, with most binding systems.

I have found it easier to get through tight singletrack turns if I lead with one ski in something resembling a Telemark stance.

[STG]

lilcliffy:

Totally agree. I learned free-heel skiing in the backcountry generally in powder conditions. I will do any kind of turn that will get me down the hill safely and on my skis. That includes kick-turns, stem christies, parallel turns and snowplows. A versatile technique equals energy saved and injury avoided. The type of turn used should be adjusted to the conditions.

[MikeK]

I agree too! I really dislike Telemark on firm stuff. I do mess with it to learn but it's much easier to stand up... although I'll say doing real, true parallel turns is harder than Telemarking. Most of what I see is actually Stem Christie - having that perfect edge control to make a P-turn is damn tough and you almost always end up with some stem. A minor distinction but a single cambered ski in shorter length with some sidecut can get a lot closer to a true P-turn with less effort. If the T turn was broken up into progressive steps like the Alpine turn is, I'd say most aren't doing parallel T-turns, especially with XCD gear. It's more like a Stem-Christie T-turn.

It comes down to carved vs skidded. It's simple - Tele is more carved but less stable and less powerful. Alpine is less carved but more powerful and more stable (side to side). To carve turns on hard snow, you need stability and power - to do it in soft is much easier because the snow deforms and edge control is not as critical. Skidded turns are hard in deep snow, particularly with soft boots and long skis but are easy to do in hard conditions where the skis naturally want to skid. But since the Tele is more carved naturally, it takes a path of least resistance through deep snow that would be hard to push around. You can make some tight, carved turns in deep snow with very little boot power, at least at slow speeds.

I think it makes sense to do whatever you feel most comfortable doing, what is safest for the conditions or what you want to play with if you aren't depending on the turn for survival.

[frickus]

I agree that you need a toolbox full of skiing techniques. Especially when you circumstances don't match your gear or your skill level. Sometimes I find myself using a different style of turn just because I'm tired.
Question: Is there an official name for turning by grabbing a tree as you go by, in a futile attempt to get back on a good line?
I'll tell you one thing though: I don't think I'll ever get tired of carving a well executed Telemark turn.

[MikeK]

Well there's my problem I suppose! When I've gotten up the gumption to try it, I've been trying to learn the Telemark turn on relatively firm snow, and been struggling. Stem turns and even parallel turns are easy on that type of snow, with just a little bit of knowledge and practice, with most binding systems.

Maybe getting off track for the hypothetical and into the practical... here's my suggestion to get yourself going with the tele (and liking it perhaps):

Take those S98s and go find an open hill. 40-50' vert is all you need - don't try too steep, but too shallow and you'll struggle too - 10-15 degrees... anymore and you'll spend a lot of time walking and thinking and less time thinking about what you want to do next to correct yourself.

Best if you can at least get a little fluff over a firm base. Just start straight running them and lunging up and down changing leads. Try to focus on going down perpendicular to the slope (you won't) and feeling centered on your skis. Don't lift your rear heel much and don't stretch out much. Just enough to go up on the BOF on the rear and maybe half a shoe length from your rear toe to your front heel (none of this is exact, just something to aim for). Keep stance shoulder width.

Then once you do that a few times and feel like you are balance, start edging the skis as you come down in your lunge - keep your upper body the same - hands out front, face straight down the hill... Let the skis do what they want and feel what the edges are doing - keep a nice rhythm and just make really shallow snakes back and forth, and focus on your fore-aft balance.

At this point start trying to take notice of what it feels like to put more weight on the front or rear ski and getting too stretched out or too wide feels like. Just mental notes and aim to keep the body in the tighter positions.

Once you feel good with that, start steering the front ski a bit and edging (rolling over) the rear ski more. All with the same stuff as above but now the skis are really going to want to move side to side - twist at the hips and drive with your knees and just try to keep your cg (your upper body) over the skis and facing forward. A little twisting won't kill you no matter what the PSIA says, but it's best to try to make your lower body do the work.

Once you can feel all those things it's just refinement, muscle memory and adaptation to conditions.

I did almost exactly what I describe over a few days and I was able to really feel comfortable on those skis by the end. They are pretty easy to Tele (says someone who taught themselves to tele on those skis) compared to everything else you have.

I still ball it up, and you will too... but once you get that feel pushing your weight down onto the skis and edging into that position, it will start to click.

[anrothar]

I'll definitely try that the next opportunity I get. Thank you! It would be nice to get better at tele turns. I feel like they're perfect for narrow and twisty singletrack.

[anrothar]

I agree that you need a toolbox full of skiing techniques. Especially when you circumstances don't match your gear or your skill level. Sometimes I find myself using a different style of turn just because I'm tired.
Question: Is there an official name for turning by grabbing a tree as you go by, in a futile attempt to get back on a good line?
I'll tell you one thing though: I don't think I'll ever get tired of carving a well executed Telemark turn.

I don't think there is, but I propose, 'Gibbon Turn'

[anrothar]

Though this video says it's called 'brachiating'

[lowangle al]

Anrothar, where are you located? I'd be happy to ski with you.