Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Soooo a guy (me) with only downhill and skate xc experience, now wants to ski up down and around the bluffs out my front door in Wisconsin off trail. Tight valley bluff terrain, sandstone cliffs (that I'd love to go off...) and steep grades abound, winding river stream bed valleys.

I don't want to put skins on, nor wax for kick (I don't think). That's probably good because my brother in law is the midwest's Madshus rep willing to set me up with Glittertind, Eon, epoch or Annum ski's which all have a waxless option, but he has no real first hand experience with bc/bxc skis, which is why I ended up here. Though I've been tempted to also consider Fischer Excusrsion 88's, given the cost I can get on the Madshus I think I'm debating between Epoch and Eon but could use some context for those two skis from people who've actually used them. I guess given that I'd be most tempted to tour around on bc skis after bigger (relatively speaking) snow events (rarely more than 5-10 inches at a time), and given I want as much climbing grip as possible without using skins, I think epochs (maybe even anums?) are a better fit for me than Eon's, but I have zero idea how much glide efficiency is really lost between something like Eon and Epoch, at say a groomed trail centerr, should I want to use trails like that to GET TO where I can go off trail and have more fun.

Any thoughts? Other thins to consider? Thanks for any help for a newbie!

If Mikek were not on vacation, he'd have a lot more to say. But XCD talk of late has been dissing the EON quite a bit. Given it sounds that you will by touring for turns, I would most def. go for the EPOCH. Keep in ming nordic skis tracks are 70mm max. Neither ski you are interested in will fit in them. Its good to know too that the Fischer line has better traction than the Madshus. Now, for in depth review on all these skis, head out to the review section on this forum or the various threads discussing ski models. Its all there.

Sounds like you are looking to ski similar terrain to what we have here in Minnesota among the bluffs and valleys of the Mississippi River Valley. With a half way decent snow year and storms out of the right direction powder can really pile up in special places, midwest backcountry skiing is not an oxymoron. We ( all of 5 of us and we are the only ones BC skiing around here we have the woods to ourselves) use Annums or Guides with 3 pins, they climb well and with our shorter hills there is no dinking around putting on and taking skins off all the time. They are slow on the packed along side the set xc tracks ( won't fit in the tracks ) so we usually tour in the woods to get to the goods where they go downhill quite well. If you are looking to tour more with occasional turns the other Madshus skiis with the brother in law discount should be fine.

Hi Nate, I wouldn't base your decision on the fact that you might use groomed xc trails to get somewhere. I have been doing it lately on fat skis myself. Don't screw up the tracks and stay out of the way of skaters. It's possible they may have rules at some places and at some you have to pay.

Since you'll probably pay cost price (or not far from that) get 2! Glittertinds & Annum... Then you will figure what you prefer according to where you ski. You can sell the pair that you do not need (I would't be surprised that you recover all your money) or keep it... You won't find all the qualities of those 2 skis in a single pair...

I'm with Rodbelan: get Annums AND Glitts. The Annums/Guides are pretty terrible on groomed hardpack XC trails due to the sidecut, weight, and width. And the Glitts are not the best for downhill turns. Having both skinny and fat gives you more options for a variety of types of snow. I'm in the midwest too and I think MNpin hit it right when they said that for touring out to short hills where skins are overkill, the Annums/Guides with 3-pins work great. What boots do you have/have in mind?

I've got both the Madshus Epoch/Karhu 10th Mountain skis and the Madshus Annum/Karhu Guide skis. If you really want to turn, there is no comparison, the Annum are the way to go:

[video][/video]

There is no way I can make quickish turns like this on the Epochs with NNN BC boots. As far as covering distance, the Epoch skis certainly feel more nimble while kick & gliding, but even then, you are still shuffling along. I agree with the others to get the Annums to turn(with Excursions/T4 boots) and maybe some much skinnier skis (with NNN BC) for a more nordic cross-country ski experience.
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Great video Lo-Fi!

I can really confuse you...

How far are you skiing on packed groomed trails to get to the off-trail stuff? A mile or two? And if you are using that to ski where you want float and control, be prepared to compromise. Glitts/E99/Gammes will fit in tracks but not give you near the float or tight turning radius bigger XCD ski will.

Annums would be good if you have huge dumps of really deep snow. IMO they suck for most anything else. But they are good on the down.

The Eon is good ski, but it's doesn't have as much grip as the wider ones, and doesn't really make tight radius turns without a lot of effort. It's a nice ski for really open woods and low angles, hiking trails, old logging roads, closed roads, sledding hills, green/low blue groomed type stuff. It doesn't have much float either and typically likes to be skied in longer lengths to get what it does best.

The Epoch would be the ski I'd suggest you go for. It still has some camber but you can make really tight turns with it with some practice. It climbs OK, but the S Bound 98 climbs better (that's really the ski I would tell you to get). It's better than the Eon. It has almost the same camber but no track groove, so on flat groomed stuff it will glide but it will tend to sideslip a lot. Also the sidecut can make it grabby on the edges and want to turn. Technique here is your friend. You can go fast with a ski like this on that stuff if you really focus on where you shoot that front ski and kick very straight back. Either that or just shuffle along slowly and enjoy it more when you get on the hills. It's tolerable if you are just using it to access something else. A lot of times with my XCD skis I'll get off to the side of the trail and just ski in the fresher stuff if it's not too deep and hard to break through. They actually ski nicer on that than hard, groomed stuff.

I'm not sure two skis would get you anything but two skis that are polar opposites and really work at just the extremes. If your extremes are touring on mellow terrain and skiing deep and steep, then sure, get two skis. If it's trying to hit as much as you can with one setup and you are willing to accept the compromises, then the middle ground can be quite nice.

MikeK wrote: I'm not sure two skis would get you anything but two skis that are polar opposites and really work at just the extremes. If your extremes are touring on mellow terrain and skiing deep and steep, then sure, get two skis. If it's trying to hit as much as you can with one setup and you are willing to accept the compromises, then the middle ground can be quite nice.

So he needs 3 skis right? haha!

Seriously though Nate, all the skis we have recommended here are good. Its al about mating your skills, preferences and the actual environments you ski (our recommendations will all be somewhat biased towards our own experiences, interests and environments). By the way, manu of us have MANY skis (like 10 or more), you might not be there and may never have to. Power to you! Get some cheap Madshus skis and enjoy it while you can!