Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[tkarhu]

I think of "unweighting" in terms of the objective. Generally, for me, unweighting is just whatever it takes to get pressure off of the engaged edge so that I can more easily roll to the other edge and reengage it for the next turn.

That could be up or down. When I'm skiing my best and smoothest, it's just a release of pressure on the inside edge of the outside ski, done by decreasing the angle at which that edge is engaged. That release allows the body to fall or roll into the inside edge of the left ski for the next turn and there is almost no up/down motion involved. That is the smoothest way for me to do it on heavier gear.

For clarity, my definitions - my telemark pronouns, if you will, are:
If you are pointing right of the fall line, in a left turn, your outside ski is uphill until you transition past the fall line and then it's downhill.
While turning, the inside ski is always the inside ski - sometimes it's uphill (or mountain side?) and sometimes it's downhill (the valley side?) depending on which side of the fall line you happen to be on at any given moment.

So, in a left turn, with the inside edge of the right ski driving the turn, by just releasing the pressure on that inside edge of the right ski, your body will roll off to the right and the inside edge of the left ski will roll with your body to become engaged. It's during this weight transition that I also bring the trailing (left) ski forward for the next turn.

Sometimes I up-unweight, sometimes down and sometimes it's a roll. Sometimes it's the upward vector from being in the bumps.
Again, this is on heavier gear, but I tend to believe the physics are very similar.

@Montana St Alum Thanks for sharing this! Seems that there are tons of experience and insight in the words.

[Stephen]

I "meant what you knew". 9 out of 5 telemarkers are dyslexic.

How many times have I cut 45” when I measured 54”?

[tkarhu]

I’m going to quote something I found on the internet:
http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Do ... nweighting
“Up-unweighting refers to "pushing" into the skis at the end of the turn, to throw the body "up" and take the weight/pressure off the skis that way, while "down-unweighting" refers to an unweighting where the body is allowed to "fall" and the feet are relaxed/retracted instead”

This is a great reference! Thanks

[CIMA]

The discussions on "weighting" and "unweighting" still don't sit well with me. These terms, born from alpine skiing, involve deliberate vertical movements of the upper body or center of mass, integral to alpine techniques and, by extension, to A-tele skiing.

However, in B-tele skiing, while shifts in mass are noticeable a little, they aren't deliberately used as part of the technique; rather, they're incidental observations that happen alongside the intended movements. Typically, these mass movements aren't even visible. Personally, I find the concepts of "push-pull" or "winding-unwinding" to be more in line with my experience.

For those interested in B-tele skiing, I'd like to expand on "braking," a fundamental concept of B-tele. I've previously covered braking on consolidated snow. Now, let's discuss braking on powder snow. B-tele turns in powder are exceedingly enjoyable, as they lessen the dependence on wide skis. I'm particularly fond of powder skiing with the NNN-BC setup.

Consider the video presented here:



TH and his student illustratively show the braking movements. On consolidated snow, braking is achieved by scrubbing the skis, but on powder, it involves "sinking" or "burying" the skis, to use TH's terminology.

Initially, TH taps the snow with his heels together, a recommended precursor to gain speed and maintain buoyancy. He then takes small, alternating sliding steps. It's important to note his stomping of the rear ski's heel. Some might interpret this as "weighting," but here, it's merely part of the "extension" movements. As TH advances the lead ski, his upper body naturally leans back slightly to maintain an upright stance. This counterbalance, along with the stomping, effectively weights the rear ski. It's crucial not to lean forward when advancing the lead ski. Pushing the rear ski down helps the tip to rise, and if the tips of both skis come up, the turn naturally occurs as you twist your pelvis.

Practicing the steps shown by TH in the video is a good way to learn powder skiing techniques. Enjoy!

[Montana St Alum]

I "meant what you knew". 9 out of 5 telemarkers are dyslexic.

How many times have I cut 45” when I measured 54”?

It's never the other way around.

[Rodbelan]

I "meant what you knew". 9 out of 5 telemarkers are dyslexic.

[/quote]

M0 kibbign!

[Stephen]

I "meant what you knew". 9 out of 5 telemarkers are dyslexic.

How many times have I cut 45” when I measured 54”?

It's never the other way around.

I mean, how is that?!
I figure I have a 50/50 probability of getting it right if I’m not paying attention, but somehow, it doesn’t seem to work out that way.
Maybe it’s like the odds in Vegas — not really 50/50…

[Stephen]

The discussions on "weighting" and "unweighting" still don't sit well with me. These terms, born from alpine skiing, involve deliberate vertical movements of the upper body or center of mass, integral to alpine techniques and, by extension, to A-tele skiing.

However, in B-tele skiing, while shifts in mass are noticeable a little, they aren't deliberately used as part of the technique; rather, they're incidental observations that happen alongside the intended movements. Typically, these mass movements aren't even visible. Personally, I find the concepts of "push-pull" or "winding-unwinding" to be more in line with my experience.

For those interested in B-tele skiing, I'd like to expand on "braking," a fundamental concept of B-tele. I've previously covered braking on consolidated snow. Now, let's discuss braking on powder snow. B-tele turns in powder are exceedingly enjoyable, as they lessen the dependence on wide skis. I'm particularly fond of powder skiing with the NNN-BC setup.

Consider the video presented here:



TH and his student illustratively show the braking movements. On consolidated snow, braking is achieved by scrubbing the skis, but on powder, it involves "sinking" or "burying" the skis, to use TH's terminology.

Initially, TH taps the snow with his heels together, a recommended precursor to gain speed and maintain buoyancy. He then takes small, alternating sliding steps. It's important to note his stomping of the rear ski's heel. Some might interpret this as "weighting," but here, it's merely part of the "extension" movements. As TH advances the lead ski, his upper body naturally leans back slightly to maintain an upright stance. This counterbalance, along with the stomping, effectively weights the rear ski. It's crucial not to lean forward when advancing the lead ski. Pushing the rear ski down helps the tip to rise, and if the tips of both skis come up, the turn naturally occurs as you twist your pelvis.

Practicing the steps shown by TH in the video is a good way to learn powder skiing techniques. Enjoy!

@CIMA, I think the bouncing he does at about 0:15 - 0:20 is a perfect example of down-unweighting.
He is contracting his legs up to his body by flexing: ankles, knees, and hips.
This action can be called anything, but the action, itself, is one way to lighten the pressure on the skis.
Yes, I know he is initially doing this to gain speed, just like a surfer will bounce a board to break surface tension to maintain or gain speed, but I think he also uses this same movement after the “Brake” part of his turn, as he transitions to “Swivel” across the fall line?

Also, if

Pushing the rear ski down helps the tip to rise, and if the tips of both skis come up, the turn naturally occurs as you twist your pelvis.

is true, then he must be pushing down on the heel, otherwise the ski tip would sink?

And also, while this video is in powder snow, it seems relatively shallow and offering something to push against. I wonder if he skis deeper, lighter powder the same way? As others have said, weighting one ski more than the other in deep powder can be unstable.

[Lhartley]

B-tele or nah?

[CIMA]

I think the bouncing he does at about 0:15 - 0:20 is a perfect example of down-unweighting.
He is contracting his legs up to his body by flexing: ankles, knees, and hips.
This action can be called anything, but the action, itself, is one way to lighten the pressure on the skis.

The purpose of this exercise is to learn how to expand and contract the body. These movements are essential for the spin motion that characterizes B-tele. As we make some sort of movements when skiing, the shifts of body mass always get involved. The key is whether these shifts are done purposefully or not. When expanding, the counter-weight mechanism of the body movements causes the body weight to shift backward, and it returns to the center when contracting. It's important to note that changes in weight are incidental and not the goal of the practice. If you focus too much on the changes in weight, it may cause the B-tele turns to fail. Also, it's worth noting that the expansion and contraction movements are not focused solely on the ankles, knees, and hips, but also include those of the upper body. This is why TH set a separate section for such movements in his writings.

Yes, I know he is initially doing this to gain speed, just like a surfer will bounce a board to break surface tension to maintain or gain speed, but I think he also uses this same movement after the “Brake” part of his turn, as he transitions to “Swivel” across the fall line?

He maintains the rhythm of his initial movements while swiveling across the fall line, but alternates pushing movements when making turns.

Also, if

Pushing the rear ski down helps the tip to rise, and if the tips of both skis come up, the turn naturally occurs as you twist your pelvis.

is true, then he must be pushing down on the heel, otherwise the ski tip would sink?

You are correct.
Pressing from the heels becomes critical as boots and bindings get beefier.
When turning, aim to have the heels of your boots touch the bindings. However, the heels may not always touch as intended.

And also, while this video is in powder snow, it seems relatively shallow and offering something to push against. I wonder if he skis deeper, lighter powder the same way? As others have said, weighting one ski more than the other in deep powder can be unstable.

To prevent your concerns from materializing, make sure to align your body axis perpendicular to the slope. The downward momentum will then push you forward into the fall line. Beginners, whether telemark or alpine, often lean backward when the powder deepens, which can make ski control challenging. I have skied on knee-deep or waist-deep powder numerous times with Madshus Epoch.