Meidjo Release, Maybe, Maybe NOT

[Montana St Alum]

Thanks for that explanation. Lots to think about…

Downloaded the Meidjo 2 user manual… couldn’t find the 3.0 one. Manual said…” Attention: Once you are in touring mode it is impossible to unfit. Always unlock the front lever as soon as you telemark. Not respect this instruction could cause serious injury.”

Yeah, rotating the handle up prevents the tech fitting from opening up. That prevents the boot rotation from hitting the release and causing the ski to come off. If you don't return it to its "telemark" position, it won't release. (At least, that's my understanding.)

[DG99]

AT tech bindings are the same. You “lock” the toe piece going uphill. Otherwise it is too easy for it to release since it’s all the pressure on just those two little pins.

[jtb]

The thread over on BC talk has a lot of info, but I'd highlight the first post that shows the force required for lateral release from Meidjo 3.0 is much higher than the suggested "DIN-equivalent" in the owner's manual. With the springbox at its lowest setting, the release force equates to roughly DIN 9. Anecdotally, others have observed that the snappier toes on Meidjo 3 seem to increase the force required for release over Meidjo 2, which has the same springbox (and same "DIN-equivalent" settings referenced in the manual) but a less snappy toe.

Meidjo release testing may be irrelevant here as the type of fall Stephen experienced is a worst-case scenario for 2-pin bindings, whether telemark or AT. That was the point of my post and the link to the skimo.co article. Slow twisting falls with rotation around the heel (the type that leads to spiral tib/fib fracture) generally do not initiate release from 2-pin bindings until forces are beyond the body's elasticity due to a lack of lateral release at the toe. This is much worse with toes locked out ("DIN 18 to 22" in Jeff Campbell's talk), but still true in ski mode as well.

Telemark bindings are the wild west when it comes to release. There are claims and anecdotes but very little data and no regulation. I don't expect that to change as the market is not there to support the overhead of regulation, so involvement by standards bodies or courts will simply remove bindings from the market. To illustrate the point, think about the fact that there is no AFD on the heel of any telemark boot. So even in the best case scenario of a fall with rotation around the toe, the force required for release is highly variable depending on how much weight is on the skier's heel. This corroborates the "don't get in the back seat"/"fall forward" advice given earlier. Imagine all the things that would have to happen to get a DIN or ISO certification: agreement between at least 2 companies, a new boot standard, new molds, a new binding design, testing, iteration, etc.

Meanwhile we can't even get a boot that would be competitive with 15 year old Alpine/AT models.

[Manney]

The circumstances leading up to this discussion were unfortunate for Stephen. We all feel for him. The upside is that Stephen’s mishap has sparked a very informative thread that covers some big knowledge gaps.

“Crash investigation” might not be a bad category on TT or BT. Injury not necessary… just a violent departure from controlled skiing in which gear performance or malfunction is suspected. It’s not always about skill… technique… experience… preference. It’s about actual knowledge of what happens… and why when it all goes to crap.

[Stephen]

I know heavy telemark is not the main focus of this forum, but, well, here I am…

Just want to clarify, in case there was any misunderstanding, my bindings where in ski mode when this happened.

Caring about all this on a personal and more visceral level has opened my eyes.
I think there are a lot of assumptions, hopes, misinformation, half/truths, and just plain lack of knowledge (some of which is available if one looks or cares to find it).
For example, I think this is worth a look, even if you don’t do this type of skiing, the info is probably worth your time (I put play speed up to 1.5 or 2x and still get all the info, slow it down if needed):

[Manney]

I may have contributed to the situation by forgetting to switch my boots from walk to ski mode.
I know some people prefer walk mode for skiing, but think either way, the key thing is consistency.

This was what you wrote that led me to believe you were in walk mode… two statements. One on the mode… the other stating a common held belief that it doesn’t matter.

Caring about all this on a personal and more visceral level has opened my eyes.
I think there are a lot of assumptions, hopes, misinformation, half/truths, and just plain lack of knowledge

Agree. Lots of threads where ppl say stupid things often under the guise of some claim of experience. Some let it slide. Others attack ppl questioning the stupidity. Leads to a dumbing down of things to the point where people get hurt. That’s what may have got you to this point… years of banter by others who didn’t know what they were talking about… didn’t read instructions… think about things… understand.

[fisheater]

@jtb If I read you correctly in the past, the Trab Tr2 toe piece works differently, and provides more reliable release, is that the correct take away?
I’m putting together a heavier outfit. Thinking new Voile TTS, which I know is not a TR2 toe piece, but I am nowhere near ready to assemble my own TTS system. Plan is to buy Voile off the shelf, possibly incorporate a TR2 toe later.
Thank you,
Bob

[jtb]

@fisheater yes, that's an accurate summary of my experience with TTS and the TR2. There's some nuance in the sense that you may slightly increase risk of ACL injury or pre-release in exchange for reducing risk of spiral tib/fib fracture. And of course there's not a lot of data out there, only research on other bindings mixed with some anecdotal evidence and gut feel.

I believe it may be possible to start with the Voile TTS and swap in another toe later, but I haven't seen it done yet. As with anything TTS, "possible" depends on your tolerance for experimentation and modification.

[connyro]

Agree. Lots of threads where ppl say stupid things often under the guise of some claim of experience. Some let it slide. Others attack ppl questioning the stupidity. Leads to a dumbing down of things to the point where people get hurt. That’s what may have got you to this point… years of banter by others who didn’t know what they were talking about… didn’t read instructions… think about things… understand.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Do you understand that discussion forums are about asking questions, expressing opinions, relating experiences, and considering responses? I ask these 2 questions beause it seems like you assume forum members and readers blindly follow any advice offered here without objective thinking and as a result, are getting injured. You offer advice on this forum too. Is your advice superior to other forum members' advice? If so, why is your advice superior?

[Manney]

Practically everything posted has been links to great things others have said elsewhere. Or posting what the manufacturer says (duh). So I’m not offering advice… highlighting important facts.

If facts anger you, go south until you hit the bridge… crawl under it when you get to the other side.