Crazy Lift ticket Prices!!!!

[bauerb]

when I was a kid in VT, the only way my parents could afford to let us alpine ski was 2 things:
- group lessons in the morning were a good deal when bought as a package over 10 weeks. a morning lesson got you a ticket good for the day
- tickets could be purchased like you get at a county fair. they came in a little booklet. 1 ticket got you up the poma lift. but the chair lift required 5 tickets. we never rode the chair lift because in our childhood brains, 1 chairlift ride was not worth 5 poma rides.

[Montana St Alum]

Yeah, even in the early 1990's in Utah, you could get coupon books or electronically read lift tickets that made it affordable to take kids skiing. Alta was free after about 3pm as I recall so we'd go over there in the afternoons to ski with the kids.

It appears there's a paid version now.
https://www.alta.com/tickets-and-passes ... -3-program

Back when our kids were young, we had to budget during the year even for the free/cheap skiing at the time just for warm clothes and used ski equipment. I expect it's tougher now.

[randoskier]

Ski Inc. 2020 by Chris Diamond.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=978099797842 ... _sb_noss_1
His first book is great, too. I knew Chris when he was GM at Mount Snow. A very readable insider's look at the business model. Day pass pricing is a tool to change behavior - buy an Epic/Ikon pass. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Feds negotiate some kind of price cap for the lease rights. But, whether it's $70 or $120, it's still expensive for most people. Some stuff is expensive. I'd sooner see better pay/benefits for employees if we're going to force a little public good out of that bottom line. Neither is going to happen. As a member of the local vol. fire dept I get a free season pass. This year Vail's giving us Epic Passes. No arm twisting, we just asked. I've never used one. I like the woods better. But, I know a bunch of people like corlay whose day at the mountain with family is worth way more than what they paid for a day pass which is very cool in my opinion.

Those are all good points and insightful comments.

Re: employees- the Europeans pay full (and generous) benefits by law to every worker- healthcare, pensions, 5 weeks paid vacation by law (min.) in most countries (not sure how that vacation rule factors for seasonal workers- probably pro-rated). They are already paying this and I am sure they are paying far higher wages to the line workers and have far fewer MBAs siphoning off dosh at the top. Their lift systems are the most modern and are far more extensive and numerous than at US resorts but their tickets are essentially at least 50% less. As in the US they also have packages that are far cheaper than day tickets- I just used day passes for the comparison here because it easier to compare- look at package prices and you will get more or less the same result- at least 50% less.

Don't get me started on lodging costs near lifts in the US....look at Austria some time...what? you can rent a 2 bedroom apartment in a major ski town situated in a beautiful chalet for $70 per night, full kitchen everything you need and spotless?

Also- food on the slopes- way cheaper and 1000% better in Europe. (with two exceptions- Switzerland over-priced food such as- $25 Bratwurst and fries + Slovenia- inexpensive and hardy mountain food and pizza but not much variety (not really a gastronomic country)

[randoskier]

when I was a kid in VT, the only way my parents could afford to let us alpine ski was 2 things:
- group lessons in the morning were a good deal when bought as a package over 10 weeks. a morning lesson got you a ticket good for the day
- tickets could be purchased like you get at a county fair. they came in a little booklet. 1 ticket got you up the poma lift. but the chair lift required 5 tickets. we never rode the chair lift because in our childhood brains, 1 chairlift ride was not worth 5 poma rides.

Was that at Bolton? When I was a kid skiing in VT I remember the Cochran family that produced all those racers had their own lift in their backyard. Sometimes we would drive from our house on Lincoln Gap road over to Middlebury where the college of the same name had their own ski area- it was quite inexpensive compared to Sugarbush. Five kids in my family all skiers, and my parents did not ski so they did not like to blow a wad of money for us kids to go sliding around on boards.

Normally we skied at Glen Ellen which was a super bargain 2,600 ft vertical and always less crowded than Sugarbush which was kinda a glam resort. This was mid 70s to very early 80s. Now Sugarbush has since bought Glen Ellen re-christened it Sugarbush 2, glammed it and it now it has stupid prices. Progress?

[corlay]

Don't get me started on lodging costs near lifts in the US....

I think this is a far bigger problem than the lift ticket costs, to me.

luckily, Rutland has a handful of cheap hotels, or lodging costs would have been a non-starter for us…

Even priceline.com “bargains” within the Killington resort were $350+/night for a 1-bedroom condo apartment. NoThankYou.

[randoskier]

My 2-cents...

1. The implied exclusivity of a premium priced lift ticket tends to make American market feel like they're getting a premium product. Especially a niche market like mountain sports where the consumer may be taken advantage of because they know little... do it 0.5 to 1.0 times per year... etc. (I think it's safe to say that most here on TT forum are not the target market, nor are similar to the market majority.)

2. Ski mountain operations is traditionally a low-margin, seasonal source of income. Anything limited to seasons (farming, fishing, etc.) is always going to be a feast or famine type of thing. I'd be interested to know if the European operators enjoy any subsidies from the local area, state, or the EU.

3. Business hates income fluctuations. They like to forecast their budgets with as much certainty as possible. The premium priced day pass incentivizes consumers to purchase more season passes. Season passes is money upfront, and they'd rather have "consistent less money" upfront rather than "uncertain more money" later... Bird in hand, 2 in the bush kind of thing... and the resort operators are willing to gamble on this pricing scheme.

1. I think most skiers in the US buy more than 1 lift ticket per season?

2. They are not low margin- Val Associates are rolling in the doe as are several other consolidators, if they ever appear to be low margin turn to the executive compensation and management salaries page. Seasonality does not matter because they have few costs in the off season, it is totally irrelevant.

Many European resorts have three season business- Chamonix, most of the resorts surrounding Innsbruck, the Dolomite resorts, most of the Swiss ones, but then again many others (most) do not.

3. They have the same incentives and advance purchase options in Europe as they do in the USA and for the same reason- the one that you state. These passes are also far cheaper in Europe then the US and are attached to resorts with 2x the lift capacity, 2x the vertical, better facilities and 2 or 3x as much skiable terrain. Off piste? Ski where you like no nanny rules, it is all inbounds.

4. They are not heavily EU subsidized with the exception of the recent Covid subsidies which have been quite large The US corporate resorts are very heavily tax-payer subsidized with sweetheart leases for the Federal land they sit upon.

https://www.cheapestdestinationsblog.co ... -than-usa/

[randoskier]

Don't get me started on lodging costs near lifts in the US....

I think this is a far bigger problem than the lift ticket costs, to me.

luckily, Rutland has a handful of cheap hotels, or lodging costs would have been a non-starter for us…

Even priceline.com “bargains” within the Killington resort were $350+/night for a 1-bedroom condo apartment. NoThankYou.

I just looked at Stubai, a medium sized ski resort (4790 ft. vertical drop, 45 lifts, 40 miles of inbounds slopes, Oct.-June) part of the Innsbruck area (we often ski it on T-giving because it has a glacier and great early and late season skiing)- One bedroom apartment in chalet, with queen bed, sleeps four, 700 sq ft- pull out couch in living room, full kitchen- for next weekend fri sat night- total $150. I can find better deals too, that was just a quick search. Weekly prices are even less. See it here. Klick on" Ferienwohnung" to see apartments.

https://www.ferienwohnung-kindl.com/

[joeatomictoad]

1. I think most skiers in the US buy more than 1 lift ticket per season?

2. They are not low margin- Val Associates are rolling in the doe as are several other consolidators, if they ever appear to be low margin turn to the executive compensation and management salaries page. Seasonality does not matter because they have few costs in the off season, it is totally irrelevant.

Many European resorts have three season business- Chamonix, most of the resorts surrounding Innsbruck, the Dolomite resorts, most of the Swiss ones, but then again many others (most) do not.

3. They have the same incentives and advance purchase options in Europe as they do in the USA and for the same reason- the one that you state. These passes are also far cheaper in Europe then the US and are attached to resorts with 2x the lift capacity, 2x the vertical, better facilities and 2 or 3x as much skiable terrain. Off piste? Ski where you like no nanny rules, it is all inbounds.

4. They are not heavily EU subsidized with the exception of the recent Covid subsidies which have been quite large The US corporate resorts are very heavily tax-payer subsidized with sweetheart leases for the Federal land they sit upon.

https://www.cheapestdestinationsblog.co ... -than-usa/

1. My bad, not one ticket per year. I was referring to tourists that go on a ski trip every 1-year or 2-years.

2. Vail operator is one of many mountain operators. Now, they do have more assets & revenue than most. In a low-margin environment, the best way to succeed is leveraging the economy of scale. It's still low-margin, Vail just succeeds at increasing sales volume. I can't blame them for that. However, providing substandard services does not help our industry, is unacceptable, and something many are blaming them for right now.

3. Looks like the pay-before-you-go model has spread across he pond.

4. That's interesting. Believe that land rights varies from state to state within the EU. I am quite ignorant to most of this, but believe some states provide for public access to private properties under some circumstances. This discussion is probably a topic for a totally different thread, and probably for a totally different website.

Besides access to lands, I may try to research other subsidies operators enjoy (US, EU, etc.) because I have a gut feeling.

[randoskier]

one word- PROFITEERING and GREED, sorry that is two but I am greedy.

[randoskier]

[/quote]


2. Vail operator is one of many mountain operators. Now, they do have more assets & revenue than most. In a low-margin environment, the best way to succeed is leveraging the economy of scale. It's still low-margin, Vail just succeeds at increasing sales volume. I can't blame them for that. However, providing substandard services does not help our industry, is unacceptable, and something many are blaming them for right now.

[/quote]


Vail is not "leveraging their economy of scale"- they are limiting competition by buying all the profitable ski resorts in their immediate vicinity that they can, the ones that are their direct competition- to eliminate price competition so they can set lift ticket prices at ridiculous prices and profiteer off it and stick it to the consumer- because the bar to entry for someone making a start up ski area of any size is about 100%, there will be no new competitors arriving on the scene to challenge them on price. All this is happening on our public lands- F-them, time to pay the piper.

The number of skiers/boarders in the US has not increased or decreased since 2004, this is not demand driven.

They are not the only mega-ski resort corp. doing this. The Justice Department should sue them all and investigate price-fixing and collusion amongst these groups.