Asnes Ingstad vs. Fischer S-bound 98?

[John Dee]

Neptune was well stocked with both Fischer and Asnes just a few days ago.

[Ira]

I was so excited to see the Excursion 88 suddenly appear on REI this morning, but my heart sank when I saw the size available: 199. Darn!

If anyone bigger than me is following this thread and is seeking this -- REI has the 199 (but sadly, not 169).

They also just had appear the 98's in 159 and 179. I'm 130 before breakfast and dressing, but even with gear I'm not 145lbs (and can't wear a backpack due to shoulder/arm/neck disabilities).

BTW, which -- Excursion 88 or S-bound 98 -- is better for getting an edge in icy, melted and refrozen conditions (for example for a snow-plow)? I'm not making S-turns but only turning to avoid things or to follow the forest service road curves? Which is better for maintaining stability at speed going over uneven areas (snowshoe, dog-tracks, sun-bumps, etc.)

I realize a straighter shape might help, but the Excursion has more camber which might make edging harder?

Thanks!

[norova]

FYI if you're looking for Excursion 88s, I was able to pre-order them from Berg's Ski Shop in Eugene, OR. They told me they are expecting to receive several pairs all through December.

[Stephen]

@Ira, @Lighturn makes a very good point (in a post on another topic). https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic. ... 917#p43917
It sounds like you have been doing SOME skiing, and maybe doing ok.
BUT, there is simply no way you can avoid falling in this sport, at least occasionally.
AND, if a fall puts you at serious risk of injury, serious consideration should be given to your plans.
I don't mean to discourage you or suggest that you not ski, but do suggest that you be realistic about the risk.

[fisheater]

@Ira, @Lighturn makes a very good point (in a post on another topic). https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic. ... 917#p43917
It sounds like you have been doing SOME skiing, and maybe doing ok.
BUT, there is simply no way you can avoid falling in this sport, at least occasionally.
AND, if a fall puts you at serious risk of injury, serious consideration should be given to your plans.
I don't mean to discourage you or suggest that you not ski, but do suggest that you be realistic about the risk.
[/quo@Ira@Ira
I would take what Stephen said one step further. I think if you are on skis you need to embrace the fall. I become a good skier because of athletic ability and the ability to fall well. I only started to clean up technique when I started skiing challenging terrain. At that point, i needed technique and stamina. Well I got older, didn’t ski that challenging western terrain, and thought that falling was beneath me. I Realized that I am older and no longer have super human falling ability or the ability to pull a save no matter how badly out of balance I find myself. I had to hurt myself a couple times to learn this lesson. Now I loose it, I just pull my knees and either slide on my or roll, depending upon gravity and velocity. My pride handles it. It beats injury. A planned fall is pretty safe for any kid that played baseball and learned how to slide into 2nd base. I think it would be the same for former soccer players as well. I plan to keep drinking my milk for strong bones, I hope to be doing planned falls through my sixties, hopefully through my seventies and beyond.

[Stephen]

@fisheater, I appreciate where you are coming from, and maybe I’m concerned unnecessarily, but it sounds like @Ira has existing conditions that you and I do not have to take into consideration for ourselves.

Personally, I’m fine with falling. A person I have skied with recently commented “you sure are flexible,” based on the twisted mess he once found me in. I just sort of go with the flow and have done ok so far. That doesn’t mean I wont someday surpass the limits of my flexibility.

@Ira has additional physical considerations that you and I don’t, and, not withstanding what you posted, I urge him to be realistic about the risk. No amount of enjoyment is worth an injury that may last a lifetime, or further limit ones enjoyment of life.

Don’t want to make a big deal of this, but I guess I am…

[fisheater]

@Stephen i was really agreeing with despite extolling the fall. While some good skiers don’t fall, or go a few years without falling, it’s been my experience that if you ski you will end up falling. Thinking you can put slippery planks on your feet and sliding on snow eventuality equals butt on snow.

[Ira]

Thank you everyone for the concerns. To clarify, the reason the foot doctor said I’m cleared to ski as long as I don’t fall, is due to Posterior Tibial Tendon Dysfuncion (ankle-foot -- I think she was more concerned about my twisting the foot or ankle in the snow than she was about my butt coming into contact with the snow). But she said I can ski if I just do gentle terrain without zig-zag turns and wear orthotics (which I do), and avoid falling by skiing super-conservatively. She said this before the pandemic, and I haven’t been able to see this Dr. since the pandemic started (cause they’re only in-person) but I’ve skied over 100 times since March 2020 (just an average of an hour each time, and I’ve been able to do that because I ski gentle terrain with 3-pin equipment and stable wide skis, just going in my own tracks). On icy days I avoid going far up the forest service road and ski the same least-steep closest-to-flat section of the road over and over (whereas on good snow-days I go a couple miles up the road, and slowly glide down my own tracks on the way down). Although I’m watching the tele video-lessons and doing them in my mind, I'm actually going to hold off on physically attempting Tele turns until the pandemic is over and I'm able to meet with my foot doctor in person to see if that not-falling requirement has changed. And hearing that folks fall more when learning Tele solidifies that decision for me. But I still ski backcountry, ungroomed, and use some of the the same equipment telemark-skiers use, such as 3-pin, wider skis, backcountry boots; every search I did on equipment reviews brought me to this list which is why I joined despite not doing tele-turns (except in my imagination).

Why do I ski despite the prescription to not-fall? Due to a completely different medical condition, plus my partner’s even more severe immunocompromised status, I have to self isolate, so outdoor exercise is the only time I leave the house. I’m very careful on researching the equipment I choose because the daily skiing is my main source of winter/spring recreation, and because choosing equipment that’s more reliable is safer (that’s why, after hearing so many people’s experience with the Asned Ingstad waxless pattern causing slippage, I decided to focus on other choices, because I don’t want anything that slips more or is harder to control than my old Rossi BC-90). I’m looking for skis that go smoothly, not for speed.

Unfortunately, the foot problems make snowshoes not accessible to me, but my feet actually do well with the mellow skiing I do (and in fact, I tend to find flare-ups happen if I don’t exercise outside, for example during fires or storms). My partner just got Hoks for herself, and they’re one-size-fits-most, so I might try those on days that regular skis are too slippery, as long as they track much smoother than snowshoes.

Re: avoiding the free heel, I did get bindings with cables (haven’t tried them,, so I’ve only XC skied with a free heel) but then I don’t plan to attempt more challenging terrain as a result of having those. If not doing tele-turns, do cables increase the risk of injury at all, or do they increase the safety? Is it worth using cables if only using them for half-snowplows or to follow a road or trails or ski onto the uphill edge of a forest service road?

Thanks! The feedback was really helpful for encouraging me to consider the Fischer Excursion 88’s, which, based on all the feedback, sound much safer than the slippery waxless Asnes!

[Lighturn]

Hello Ira,

as it ist the ancle and twisting movements your doctor seems to want to avoid my recommendations is still: Lightweight alpine tourng equipment and releasable lightweight bindings with a fixed heel is the way to go. The fixed heel will severely reduce the risk to fall in the first place. Then - if you fall on the downhill part - your ancle is seriously protected from any twisting motion, since its locked in the boot. Its most of all the knee that will take the strain to release the binding. Thats all risk - reduction - not giving any guarantee. I've seen people (good skiers!) fall backwards on the uphill track heavily bruising themselves.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers

Lighturn

[lilcliffy]

Been lightly following the multi-thread discussion @Ira !

Lightturn's comments and advice are definitely worth considering...

You also might want to consider XC skiing with a plastic Telemark boot- it would certainly protect your foot-ankle from twisting (not your knees though- and they won't release like an AT binding...)

(I am a bit confused to how you think that a soft 3-pin touring boot is going to protect you more than NNNBC...Or how you will be able to snow-plow/break more effectively either...)

I would suggest- based on your explanations- that the primary reason to avoid the Ingstad is not grip (extra grip can be easily increased with skins and/or grip wax)- the primary reason to avoid the Ingstad is that they are lightening bolts- VERY fast- MUCH faster than the Fischer 78/88/98//112- faster than it sounds like you want to ski!

Regardless- the narrower the ski, and the less cambered it is- the easier it is going to be to be able to control the ski, put it on edge and snow-plow-brake (especially in soft Nordic touring boots).

Even at 68mm underfoot (Fischer 88/98) I would think that you would want a plastic Telemark touring boot if you want complete control over the ski and be able to slow down, even in icy conditions?

As far as picking a stable slow ski- get em short- even consider softer, less cambered skis...

How much do you weigh again?

I would think that a short Fischer 78 + easy-skin- or a short Madshus Eon/62 + skin- would be the best option in a Nordic touring ski...(given your specfic situation/context)

(Was it you @Ira that mentioned that you didn't like the Madshus Epoch?)

Gareth