Fischer E-109 vs. Asnes Ingstad

[MikeK]

OH I know there was no comp to the old one, just the S 98, which I have... I was using his comp to a ski I have to try to figure out wth the camber on the S 78 was compared to the current E109.

You might be right though... The E109 xtralite and the S 78 might be closer than we think.

And frig, I dunno. If I were Teleman I'd do what I did and buy a pair of those 199 S78s for $190. It's a good deal no matter what the camber is!

[bgregoire]

OH I know there was no comp to the old one, just the S 98, which I have... I was using his comp to a ski I have to try to figure out wth the camber on the S 78 was compared to the current E109.

You might be right though... The E109 xtralite and the S 78 might be closer than we think.

And frig, I dunno. If I were Teleman I'd do what I did and buy a pair of those 199 S78s for $190. It's a good deal no matter what the camber is!

man, your S78s got then damn scales. Teleman seems much more into D'EM BONES..........

[MikeK]

I thought bones and scales were the same to him... oh well.

He's gonna have a hell of a time trying to get a pair of wax E109s. Might find a used pair again like he did if he gets lucky, but I never see them for sale used (yes I check). And if they are for sale new... $$$$.

[bgregoire]

I thought bones and scales were the same to him... oh well.

He's gonna have a hell of a time trying to get a pair of wax E109s. Might find a used pair again like he did if he gets lucky, but I never see them for sale used (yes I check). And if they are for sale new... $$$$.

They are relatively common on the used market in Quebec.

[MikeK]

Oh - well I wonder if Teleman knows how to buy stuff from Canada. There are companies at the border that will receive stuff for you... but of course he'd have to negotiate that Canadian Craigslist you guys have, and maybe in French, to try to find them. Sounds like too much for him... I think the S Bound would be easier

[MikeK]

I re-read Gamme's review of the Ingstad again (UTE magazine):
http://www.utemagasinet.no/Utstyr/TEST-Ski-for-fjellet

Arrrgh... could be such a good article but they don't give all the data!

They talk about 15kg camber height with the Ingstad, but why not load to closure?!?

It seems you guys were quite right about the Nansen being a stiffer ski than the Ingstad, at least as well as I could muster from the poor translation and incomplete data they give.

They say it's turning ability comes from it's very smooth flex. OK I'll buy that. It still seems like a pretty stiff ski to close up at 65kg. That would definitely give me a healthy 50/50 wax pocket. If you wanted the Nansen but with even softer flex, well the Cecelie is the ski! Sounds like it's maybe even a tad softer than an Eon.

[lilcliffy]

The current E-Series are much more of a XC-ski (i.e. K&G) than the previous generation. Fischer has made a move to separate the E-Series (backcountry-xcountry) from the S-Bounds (XCD).

If you like the previous E-109 for long-distance cruising- I would expect you will like the new one even more- hopefully- despite the narrow waist!

Sorry about the exaggeration- I did not mean to suggest that the old E-Series were not XC-focused skis.

I do feel strongly that the current E-series are XC-focused BC skis. I don't personally own any of them...but I have skied on the current E-89, E-99 and E-109 (all with waxable bases and in long XC lengths). From my perspective they are all double-cambered BC-XC skis. The flex pattern gets progressively softer from E-89 to E-109. My assumption was that this flex-pattern is intended for different snow conditions ranging from dense/hard/groomed (E-89) to relatively deep soft/fresh snow (E-109). My conversations with Fischer have at confirmed at least this perspective. The E-99 seems to still be the most versatile of the three skis.

I cannot compare them effectively to the previous generation. (Which again I have only tried a few times)

The current generation has "Nordic rocker"- which ain't the same thing as a truly rockered tip- but it should produce some early tip-rise; and make them easier to steer on the downhill. And they all have sidecut that gets progressively more parabolic from E-89 to E-109. The damn E-109 has 22mm of sidecut!!

Regardless- at least in my limited experience the E-109 performed much more like a XC ski than any of the S-Bounds I have tested- including the S-78...

But- here's the thing- maybe all of these BC-XC skis are converging- at least in a general sense...

For example- why put 22mm of sidecut in a BC-XC ski? Obviously to give it better downhill performance on a dense base. But from a XC perspective, that 22mm of sidecut comes with a significant cost of losing effective flotation and tracking performance.

There are a number of current trends in ski design- FAT being one of them we have beat to death. Another dominant trend is to add everything to every ski. Every ski's gotta have aggressive sidecut; every ski's gotta have early-tip rise, etc., etc. Just read the descriptions of current Alpine skis: "a ski designed for on-piste; but with enough float to take you into the fresh pow..."; or "a ski designed for the pow, but with enough stiffness, torsional strength and sidecut to carve it up on the groomers..."; etc., etc.

This trend to make every ski, do everything, seems to have spilled over into the Nordic BC ski world as well...

And IMHO, technology that is designed to do "everything" is very rarely very good at anything...

IMHO, this design trend is a mistake.

Avid, committed, life-long skiers want skis that are designed for a specific context (snow, terrain, cover, XC/D, etc.). As the range of skiing conditions expand for a skier- the skier's range of equipment grows to maximize the value of the skiing experience in each context.

In short- I don't want skis that are designed to do "everything"- I want skis that are designed for a specific context...

So it leads me back to my original question in this thread...

I am looking for a mid-width Nordic XCD ski- from a classical Scandinavian perspective (the "fjellski"). A ski that, with skill, can be handled in mountainous terrain; but still contains XC DNA in its core- so that it still performs like a XC ski when travelling long distances. In order to fit this bill the ski must have more camber and stiffer flex than any of the "hybrid" XCD skis I have tested (e.g. current S-Bounds, Karhu/Madshus XCDs, etc.).

My test of the E-109, and everything I have read about it and the Ingstad seem to fit this bill...

The addition of the aggressive sidecut to both skis seems like too much of a compromise to me- but I am willing to accept that the designers know more about the physics than I do. Perhaps the flex pattern of each ski provide just enough support to the waist, that both skis have effective flotation for their width?

So do the E-109 and the Ingstad offer better XC performance than skis like the S-78/S-88?

What do you think?

[Cannatonic]

>>>So do the E-109 and the Ingstad offer better XC performance than skis like the S-78/S-88?

yes, they have more camber. btw, when I said the new E99 & 109 are more nordic I was speaking of weight. Lighter weight.

[Woodserson]

Second ^^^

[bgregoire]

So it leads me back to my original question in this thread...

I am looking for a mid-width Nordic XCD ski- from a classical Scandinavian perspective (the "fjellski"). A ski that, with skill, can be handled in mountainous terrain; but still contains XC DNA in its core- so that it still performs like a XC ski when travelling long distances. In order to fit this bill the ski must have more camber and stiffer flex than any of the "hybrid" XCD skis I have tested (e.g. current S-Bounds, Karhu/Madshus XCDs, etc.).

So Lilcliffy, getting back to your question, and just to mix up things a little, in case you have not seen my previous post about the Sporten nordic backcountry ski line, what about the Expedition (90/70/80), offered in sizes up to 190? Double stiff as hell (ain't nothing like it at that width). Apparently sold waxable as well. We have a local delaer here who has them, only with scales though.

http://old.sporten.cz/eng/catalog/nordi ... ition.html