Of boots and such...

[lilcliffy]

Yes- Harris welcome!

And Ben- that Andrew Ultimate COD (and a boot like the Merrill Comp) is an excellent examples of "old-school" "Telemark" boots.

But unless I am mistaken I do not think that was the point of Mike's OP?

Wasn't the original question whether downhill skiing on backcountry-XC tech made you a "better skier"?

I have only tested current-generation powerful plastic Telemark boots-bindings at the resort. I cannot speak to whether I can downhill ski "better" on NTN with a Scarpa TX Comp, versus a Merrill Comp with a 3 pin cable binding. (The Merrill Super Comp was the boot I skied in during the 1990s- when I lived in British Columbia- loved it as a “Telemark” boot- but I never agreed that it was a “XCD” boot- at least, not in a classical sense.)

My point? A Merrill Super Comp and an Andrew Ultimate COD may not be as powerful as top of the line plastic Telemark boots- but they are on a whole other level of power compared to a Crispi Svartisen or a Fischer BCX8- let alone an Alpina Alaska, Crispi Stetind, or a Fischer BCX6.

I have no idea whether I could blow people on NTN away with my retired Super Coms…but I don’t live in Expertville.

[lilcliffy]

Also- I only ever used my Super Comps in the backcountry...I have no idea how they would perform on-piste, compared to a current-gen powerful plastic boot (either 75mm or NTN).

[bgregoire]

Yes- Harris welcome!

And Ben- that Andrew Ultimate COD (and a boot like the Merrill Comp) is an excellent examples of "old-school" "Telemark" boots.

But unless I am mistaken I do not think that was the point of Mike's OP?

I don't know man (hey, at least this thread has not gone flower power on us! ). To me, MikeK wants to know what we think about going downhill with leathers vs newer plastic tech. Harris thinks he is a better skier when combining leather flex AND plastic cuffs (merrells supercomps). I think this is a VERY interesting input myself. + Sounds like he has been tele-ing forever and probably has a ton of insight for us. Thought i'd let him know those boots are still kicking around.

For me, personally, the floppy leather / stiff plastic boot is not really worth debating. If you are really that committed to going downhill free-heel, you should get around to trying both ASAP. I'd go as FAR as saying you should own a pair of both and make a point of using them where they respectively work best for YOU.

Now, leather metatarsal flex and seriously stiff lateral cuffs. Sounds like the holy grail to me for downhill tele. A compromise XCD is all about. Too bad those babies are so heavy though (not convinced i would want to skin up with them), otherwise, I'd already own a pair myself.

[lilcliffy]

Harris thinks he is a better skier when combining leather flex AND plastic cuffs (merrells supercomps). I think this is a VERY interesting input myself. + Sounds like he has been tele-ing forever and probably has a ton of insight for us.

Agree and agree.

For me, personally, the floppy leather / stiff plastic boot is not really worth debating.

Again- agree.

make a point of using them where they respectively work best for YOU.

Agree.

Now, leather metatarsal flex and seriously stiff lateral cuffs. Sounds like the holy grail to me for downhill tele. A compromise XCD is all about. Too bad those babies are so heavy though (not convinced i would want to skin up with them), otherwise, I'd already own a pair myself.

Yeah pretty damn heavy off-piste.

But getting back to the original post- although a lot of this can end up like "splitting hairs"- don't you think that the degree of difference in technology/technique between a full-plastic 75mm/leather-plastic composite 75mm is really minor- compared to the difference in tech between a soft leather XC boot and a powerful Telemark boot?

I totally agree that I miss the metatarsal flex of leather the most when I am in a plastic Telemark boot. But with that powerful plastic high upper- a boot like the Ultimate COD is going to perform a lot more like a T2- or even a T1- than it is an Antarctic. That Ultimate boot looks way more powerful than a T4 or an Excursion.

There are techniques that you can perform with a boot like the Ultimate- that IMHO you just cannot use with a XC boot like the Antarctic.

I think that one can only draw conclusions regarding "being a better skier", if one is comparing "apples to apples": same tech, same terrain and cover; same snow conditions.

Can you ski extreme terrain with a BC-XC boot like the Antarctic- some skiers can...Does that make them better skiers? IMHO, they certainly have a different set of skills than Telemark skiers that have only ever skied on powerful Tele tech.

I know that for me personally- no matter how far I push my BC-XC tech on steep terrain- there is a limit to what a mere-mortal like myself can expect to consistently downhill ski on such equipment. I am not embarrassed to admit that I have not yet reached a skill-level where I wouldn't want powerful Telemark equipment on extreme terrain.

My pursuit of downhill skiing on xcountry tech has caused me to develop a whole new set of skills- skills that I find very difficult to use on Telemark tech- unless it is very light and on the flexible end of the Telemark spectrum (e.g. Excursion/T4).

I have only skied in my T4s a half-dozen times in the last three years- and my BC-XC-focus has completely changed the way I downhill ski in the T4- they are flexible enough.

The few times I have recently tested current-gen Telemark tech (most recently the T1)- I find I cannot use my BC-XC technique- they are way too high, stiff and powerful. I doubt very much that it would be all that different on my old Merrell Super Comps.

[MikeK]

Apples to oranges is of little consequence... what makes YOU a better skier?

Not what gear, what learning techniques.

We seem to be getting a lot of posters from the Seattle area. Ones who like to talk about long poles, twisting the body and facing fall lines. While all valid info, it's awfully familiar to a certain someone who likes to cause trouble here. I'd be very careful of who you trust around here these days.

[bgregoire]

Ones who like to talk about long poles, twisting the body and facing fall lines.

What's wrong with that? Sounds like fun to me.

[MikeK]

Ben I can show where to go if you want that mess... although I suspect you already know.

[bgregoire]

Ben I can show where to go if you want that mess... although I suspect you already know.

Might have seen but the tip of the iceberg, maybe more. It ain't all pretty that is for sure. Can't say I know, either, if any or how much ADMIN effort must be put to keeping this FORUM respectable. BUT its great to have diverging opinions and different approaches to skiing free-heel. We can't go so far as burning every dude from Seattle who teles with long poles? We can't, either, speak of the potentiality of intruders on every live thread here. We'd loose the good vibe almost as much as if we had a members spewing insults everywhere. Am I completely off the wall?

[MikeK]

You are correct. I let most posters go. Suspicious behavior will be met with suspicion on my end and I'm not afraid to make it public. Just ignore it and carry on, but I want everyone to be aware. I encourage people to work their way in and become more intimate. Pictures and personal accounts give you more credibility as being legitimate. Really if no one causes any trouble, it's not a big deal, but it is a bit strange and foolish for people to come and post false info with the intent of getting us to go along with them or to inflict controversy. It's a fine line between trolling and sparking debate. Most of it lies in whether the individual behind the screen is presenting themselves accurately.

We welcome all opinions and types of skiing here although we have a strong tilt towards XCD. That's fine.

If you open up within a few posts without being asked with things that are known triggers from a certain individual, well, you'll be seen as suspicious. I'm sorry but that's the way it goes.

There are plenty of good, trustworthy people on this forum. I can personally vouch for them in dealing, etc... but it still is the internet and there is a cloak of anonymity as well as certain individuals who regard this place as something to be destroyed or mocked, mainly due to personal conflict with myself or the owner. Just be aware of that.

[bgregoire]

But getting back to the original post- although a lot of this can end up like "splitting hairs"- don't you think that the degree of difference in technology/technique between a full-plastic 75mm/leather-plastic composite 75mm is really minor- compared to the difference in tech between a soft leather XC boot and a powerful Telemark boot?

At some point, and we are near, mastery is no longer about the equipment but the experience. And to me, one gateway to improving your xcD technique is attaining speed and repeating the movement on and on. Heavier duty gear just helps make that happen safely and consistently (such as in resort skiing or bigger mountain stuff) even though the techniques you employ to turn on light gear are different than those you use on heavy stuff. I mean, its not like we are debating wether swimming or running are better, its all downhill free heel skiing. Sure its different, but its the same too. So, we should ski NNNBC, we should ski pins, we should go to antartica AND alaska, we should ski T1s, we should ski NTN. Hell, let's have fun!