This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
1. Look at the picture… don’t forget that the skier is in motion. The left ski is leading the arc. The skier is turning right.
2. Look at the spray. The right ski is throwing up more snow. This is a sign of friction because the scrub angle of that ski is larger. Why? Because the right ski is pointed down the fall line but the skier is in a turn… in other words, the skier is in the process of crossing the fall line.
Yes, that’s exactly what I see (except for your part, in red).
I say the scrub angle is SMALLER.
My only point is that the inside, right ski is pointed MORE downhill, so how can it be scrubbing across the hill more than the other ski? The right ski is pointed more to the OUTSIDE of the turn (less resistance to the turn), not the INSIDE (more resistance to the turn).
I’m not arguing, just pointing out what it looks like to me.
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1. Look at the picture… don’t forget that the skier is in motion. The left ski is leading the arc. The skier is turning right.
2. Look at the spray. The right ski is throwing up more snow. This is a sign of friction because the scrub angle of that ski is larger. Why? Because the right ski is pointed down the fall line but the skier is in a turn… in other words, the skier is in the process of crossing the fall line.
Yes, that’s exactly what I see (except for your part, in red).
My only point is that the inside, right ski is pointed MORE downhill, so how can it be scrubbing across the hill more than the other ski? The right ski is pointed more to the OUTSIDE of the turn (less resistance to the turn), not the INSIDE (more resistance to the turn).
I’m not arguing, just pointing out what it looks like to me.
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Forget “downhill”. The skier is turning *through the fall line*. In fact, they’re already *past the fall line* by a few degrees.
They’re facilitating the turn by scrub on the inside (right) ski and orientation of the outside (left) ski.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.
A snowplow turn works on the same principals I’ve described above.
Agree there seems to be not much tip pressure, maybe more heel pressure?
I think of skis in a Snowplow like the V-hull of a boat with the inside edges Carve-Scraping (TM), and when you "weight" the left ski it carves more than skids and since it's pointed right motion becomes right-biased and thus "turns" that way.
Snow spray can be so many things, even just that ski happening to hit a clump of snow at the right time. If it was the O-ring on a space shuttle booster rocket, I'd be more concerned.
So Fish, you didn't learn on leather boots? That's all they had when I started in 85'. Coming from a xc backround I went with double camber skis. I had a couple pairs of single camber skis, but didn't have the experience to feel their benefits so I didn't stick with them. Same for the cable binding.
It took about 15 years to be able to make turns without needing enough momentum to flex the skis into an arc. Then I switched to a single camber ski with a cable, quit working (in the winter) and put it all together. It still took another 15 or more years to get over that overweighting of the rear ski and finally get perfectly centered.
It doesn't have to take 30 years to learn. With the right gear, good instruction and a season pass you could figure it out in a season. The good thing is, like sex, you don't have to be an expert to enjoy it. At least that's what I've heard.
I first went in 1971. IDK what I was on, but they felt like low top converses and they could have been on quadruple camber skis for all I know. We shuttled to a pass somewhere in Colorado and by the time I got to the bottom, I'd sat down so much I finally put my legs through the arm holes on my down vest to cover my butt, it was so cold!
You needed this… ha ha
Yeah. Technique is so simple when you're 19. Go straight. When you have to turn, fall down. Line up your skis for the next straight segment. Repeat!
You can't really tell from a static picture. It looks like he might be setting himself up for the next turn. If they're tight short radius turns they wouldn't be parallel for long, if at all. If you want to ski with your skis parallel, start out with longer radius turns and keep a real tight, but open stance.
You can't really tell from a static picture. It looks like he might be setting himself up for the next turn. If they're tight short radius turns they wouldn't be parallel for long, if at all. If you want to ski with your skis parallel, start out with longer radius turns and keep a real tight, but open stance.
The skier hasn’t switched lead. Also, the snow is coming off the left side of the skis.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.
I don't know whether or not to start an individual thread for this, but anyway.
Does anyone have any concrete advice or experience about turning Gammes, specifically?
For context I can turn my Nansens borderline gracefully, if idiosyncratically, a couple of ways, but I'd be interested if anyone has any specific notes-to-self on consistently turning Gammes (or longer, stiffer and narrower skis generally)?
In 20-40 cm cold snow, my Gammes have started to turn only, when I have pressured the inner rear edge of my front ski. I have mostly practiced in 20-40 cm powder. In such snow, you can have even all weight on the front ski inner rear edge, and a turn works out well on Gammes. Also, these exercises have been where there is enough space for a wide turn.
However, when I have started to practice on harder ground, I have felt out of control with that technique. There the inner rear edge pressuring seems to have limited use. More continuous edging of both skis has seemed necessary for speed control. For such settings, I have started to learn pressuring the ball of foot on rear ski, plus edging. That has brought a feeling of control back also on hard ground. All practice has been on ~10-15 degrees slopes.
Tkarhu,
I have a Gamme. It is very stiff underfoot, that’s why it goes fast! Now when I have a little fluff on top of hardpack, and it doesn’t take much, I can get that rocker to bend the front of the outside or front ski. Now that I have that outside ski turning if I use a little flat ski rotation technique, once that inside or back ski is pointing where it should, I can weight it and ride it around in a Telemark turn.
Now is it a true Telemark? My answer is kind of. What it is, is a full fledged knee drop with pressuring of the little toe side on the inside or uphill ski. For me that is as Telemark as it gets on a Gamme. I bet it would look pretty darned Telemark in a video.
The bottom line is a ski doesn’t turn if it doesn’t bend. That Gamme isn’t made to bend with only half your weight pressuring it. However if I can bend the front ski utilizing the rocker, then bend the back ski dropping the knee hard. On a Gamme? Heck yeah, that’s a Telemark!
That sounds like what I described earlier about starting the turn with the lead ski weighted and ending it with the rear ski weighted. This is one way to get enough weight on each ski to carve it. Otherwise, you can weight both skis at the same time with extreme weighting. It takes more skill and physical energy and it's not as forgiving if things don't go right.
There is a lot more that needs to happen to turn a dbl camber ski compared to single camber.
DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.
@Musk Ox, I struggle myself with this ski.
Carved turns are a long arc and if the snow is at all fast, speed quickly exceeds my ability, or willingness to tempt fate.
Then, each snow condition is different.
One thing I would say is it takes 100% commitment to the turn, and a willingness to fall if it doesn’t go as planned. The skis are so stiff that there is little middle ground. The turn works or not (maybe a wider stance, wedged turn might help, but I haven’t tried that — for better or worse I tend to have a fairly tight stance).
The other thing that seems important is edge angle for non-carved turns, which just takes experimentation.
I spent an hour one time just trying the same turns in the same place paying attention to edge angle, and trying to get the skis to skid the amount I wanted them to skid for the turn.
In loose snow, there is a little more wiggle room, but still take a real push on that front ski to get it to come around.
I also think some level of speed is required to generate enough energy to push the skis around.
For me anyway, I don’t want to go faster than I know what will happen, but I think it takes pushing the edge of that envelope as much as possible.
I’m not talking Ludicrous Speed, it’s just that the skis wont turn without the necessary energy.
Might work against me that I’m relatively light for the 210s.
Hope that helps some!
