Meidjo Release, Maybe, Maybe NOT

[Stephen]

YES!. This makes sense. Explains why the binding didn’t release.

@Manney Maybe — sorta wish the camera had been rolling…

[Manney]

Agree. Maybe mute the sound track though. Can’t unhear a primal scream. Feel for you…

The thing is… it’s a logical explanation. Follows the function of the binding as jasonq described it. (Nobody has challenged his description, so it stands.)

Otherwise, we’re back to square one… wondering what went wrong. Don’t need to go there unless someone can logically explain why this does not make sense. It makes sense to @Stephen, me too.

… if the binding tests to an equivalent of say a DIN of 9 in a pure horizontal release test (90* force vector, with no down pressure on the toe), then, with down pressure on the toe (maybe a forward, twisting fall), the release value will be higher (even more so if that forward twisting fall also raises the heel of the boot).

[lowangle al]

I don't think technology will ever get to the point that you will get a reliable release in a slow speed fall and not get an unwanted release at speed. You can't totally eliminate risk with a releasable binding. They haven't for alpine gear, so I wouldn't expect it with tele gear.

[fisheater]

We all like to ski, and we all are aware of our human frailties. We don’t want to feel the pain of a serious injury, we don’t want to go through long recovery, and most importantly we don’t want to damage our bodies in a manner that cause long term, or permanent disability.
In our gear, we can have “flop ability”. Gear that has give, the connection and materials of the bindings and boots give before we do. I think even up to Hardwire and T-4 you have pretty good flop ability.
Somewhere in the process, stiff boots and active bindings loose flop ability. Releasablity is a big draw to NTN. It’s why I am leaning towards a resort set up with the upcoming Voile TTS binding with the releasable Plum toe. I’m going that way because I don’t want to wait for the long awaited new Scarpa NTN boot, and my skiing just doesn’t require a TX Pro. A T-2 would cover my skiing, but I decided to go lighter boot with possibility of release.
I’m going to offer one more option in the avoidance of injury that I have implemented in my older years. I call it embracing the fall. When I was younger I could pull off all sorts of recoveries, and if I didn’t pull off the recovery, I would still fall well. That would include on the mountain bike, where I have gone over the bars yet completed the fall running downhill, on my feet of course. Well at sixty (plus) I just don’t seem to possess those reflexes. Who knew???? After a couple minor nicks, I have embraced the fall. No longer is my attitude I don’t fall. My new injury prevention strategy is just fall. The strategy has worked well for me. My body is still rugged enough to tuck and roll at speed. It works well for me. I get the skis up out of the snow, perpendicular to the fall line, aim for the white area between hard or pointy things, pull my knees to my chest. I’ve been doing it since I was very small, 5 or 6 years old, it still works.
So while I am opting for possibility of release on my less floppy gear, my primary injury prevention strategy is embrace the fall, while I still control how I fall.
It’s something to consider. As well as lower angle slopes that you ski well on gear heavy enough to handle the terrain. I just still push things, I always have, it’s in my nature.
I hope that the guys still skiing have a safe fun spring season. For the rest of us, may your other season activities be fun and safe. Most of all, Peace and health be on your homes and families.

I really enjoy the conversations guys

[Manney]

Most sensible thing read in a long time on TT. Lots of wisdom on display.

Was tracking the TX Pro discussion… wondering where you’d go with it. Lots of ppl buy stuff others would… instead of what might serve their skiing style, conditions, etc. Didn’t say anything… your deal, not mine. Glad you found your path using your own compass. Mine only points in the direction I’m going… destination unclear. More the journey.

[DG99]

For anyone that cares, it is true that downward pressure on the front of the boot (down pressure on the toe pins, and with the toe in ski mode, that is, unlocked) will make it more difficult to rotate the heel of the boot out of the duckbutt (because to rotate the heel out, the pins have to open).

So, if the binding tests to an equivalent of say a DIN of 9 in a pure horizontal release test (90* force vector, with no down pressure on the toe), then, with down pressure on the toe (maybe a forward, twisting fall), the release value will be higher (even more so if that forward twisting fall also raises the heel of the boot).

Yes…. You would have to pressure the cuff though to get much downward pressure. Or, just having the heel raised creates some downward pressure, by camming in the mechanism. Not an absolute lock, but would increase the force needed to release.

I don’t think this happens much or any with AT tech bindings as the heel breaks away, after which you are on just the two pins which release pretty easy anyhow. I have G3 ions, seem to work.

Also, the Meidjo is apparently higher (DIN) than expected, and that clamping force surely gets even higher as the heel is raised off the ski (same way tele binding “activity” works). NTN has the same problem but worse since the DIN setting is the same mechanism as the activity setting. But NTN doesn’t have that problem where downwards pressure is holding the pins together harder than they would otherwise.

The Telebry plates always seemed the best solution but apparently problematic in execution and they quit making them. It’s just two low profile plates held together by a mechanism that released with either a twist or upwards pressure, any direction. And not caught up with the binding activity. I got a set to put under my wife’s 3 pins and T4 after she broke her leg on those. Seemed pretty good but I heard didn’t work so well for hard chargers and had breakage issues.

Just ski carefully?

My two cents

[DG99]

CORRECTION

On second thought after messing with the Ion toes in the garage, I don’t think downwards pressure on the toe piece increases the effective DIN value.

Sure you press down to step in, but once it pops it goes to its other stable point, where it’s bottomed out. It can’t go any further down. Plus, the boot is suspended, not anywhere near touching the central bar at that point. So, the mechanism is free to pop upward towards its other stable point.

Video hopefully clarifies? Anyways, that just leaves the excessive DIN setting on the Meidjo, and the increase in pressure with the heel raising. And release with slower falls don’t seem to happen as readily as with sharp blows, with any of these release mechanisms.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zWur77UCneQ

[Manney]

Interesting. Should x post to BCT thread. Jasonq did his tests with a torque wrench… so some direct measurement, values posted. Maybe some pressure on the pins at work… based on the hinge point… maybe not. Worth posing the Q to him anyway.

Slow vs fast impulse makes sense.

[Montana St Alum]

I just put on my Tx Pro boot and put it in the M2.1. Without being buckled in, it twisted out easily without the duck butt engaged. Buckled up, also came out easily by twisting both on my foot and just by hand with the heel down and all the way up. Dialed down the release to minimum and stepped in with the duckbutt engaged. I was able to twist out without having to use an impulse, just twisting, but it was harder, for sure. When I was young and skied alpine, I used a DIN of 7 on my toe and was able to twist out. This seemed close, but not as much of a clean release. Once the duckbutt releases and the pins release, there's some residual resistance to rotation.

If you have the bindings and boots, it's pretty easy to experiment, but I don't think you'll get an apples-to-apples comparison to the release on an alpine toe. They're just different.

[DG99]

I just put on my Tx Pro boot and put it in the M2.1. Without being buckled in, it twisted out easily without the duck butt engaged. Buckled up, also came out easily by twisting both on my foot and just by hand with the heel down and all the way up. Dialed down the release to minimum and stepped in with the duckbutt engaged. I was able to twist out without having to use an impulse, just twisting, but it was harder, for sure. When I was young and skied alpine, I used a DIN of 7 on my toe and was able to twist out. This seemed close, but not as much of a clean release. Once the duckbutt releases and the pins release, there's some residual resistance to rotation.

Well, it sounds like it works….. can it twist out with both the toe and the duck but connected, when your heel is way up off the ski? Much harder from that position?