interesting old 3-pin Telemark instructional video

[lilcliffy]

I really enjoyed and appreciate the video I posted- I certainly did not post it to criticize any era's skiing techniques or abilities.

Despite the fact that I use the telemark turn- or at least what I call a "telemark" turn- I would never claim that I am an expert "Telemark skier".

I think that the technique used by the skier in the video is beautiful and effortless.

As far as skill- having been a Nordic and Alpine skier for over 40 years now- my experience suggests that there will be highly skilled skiers in every era- but, the technology has certainly gotten to the point where even intermediate-skilled skiers can shred down slopes, snow, and terrain that at one time was restricted to the most skilled of skiers.

That video- other than being beautiful- demonstrates a number of things to me.

One of particular interest to me- because nowadays I spend most of my time on XC boots and bindings- is the degree of heel lift on the rear foot...

(I am well aware that the conventional wisdom is to keep a compact stance, and reduce heel lift on the uphill/trailing foot.)

One of the typical reasons to poo-poo system bindings for telemark skiing is the notion that the toe-bar attachment encourages too much heel lift, and resultant lack of weight and control on the rear ski.

My personal experience is that without a heel cable, I cannot consistently keep my heel low on my rear foot, and I feel a very significant loss of downward force, when my heel is high. (When I don't need that power and control, it doesn't matter- but, when it does- boy does it matter!).

Well- here is a beautiful and very skilled Telemark skier, skiing with just 3-pins, and I see all kinds of heel lift...

Perhaps heel lift has very little to do with a toe bar vs. duckbill?

[lowangle al]

I think you're right about heel lift having nothing to do with pins or a toe bar. I think it has to do with stance. Try this carpet test. Stand toe to heel with your feet a comfortable skiing distance apart widthwise. Now bend your knees while trying to keep both feet flat and your knees close together. When I do this I feel the weight go to the ball of the rear foot and my heel only comes up slightly, and I feel stretching in my lower calf muscle.

If you can feel this on the carpet try doing it on skis and it should help eliminate excessive heel lift.

[bgregoire]

That's some awesome Skiing there Larry!

[Harris]

That's some awesome Skiing there Larry!

Thanks. I used to think it would help me score points with the ladies. But, um, nope. Ugly is still ugly.

[Harris]

I think you're right about heel lift having nothing to do with pins or a toe bar. I think it has to do with stance. Try this carpet test. Stand toe to heel with your feet a comfortable skiing distance apart widthwise. Now bend your knees while trying to keep both feet flat and your knees close together. When I do this I feel the weight go to the ball of the rear foot and my heel only comes up slightly, and I feel stretching in my lower calf muscle.

If you can feel this on the carpet try doing it on skis and it should help eliminate excessive heel lift.

I agree with everything you are saying except for one point I think should be made. The upright stance, whether tele or alpine is a soft,. non-aggressive stance. That is fine if you are just flowing down a low angle cruiser, but if you really want to turn hard, or are having to turn hard due to slope steepness and/or less than stellar conditions, you are going to have to get down and into a power position. That doesn't mean being splayed out with the foot way back. It just means hunkering from the waist down, and if you go down with the lead leg you're going to go deep with the rear leg knee bend, and that heal is going to come up. That was what I was trying to show in my old news paper clipping. I'm deep, but very much in a tight fore/aft stance, using a lot of hip angulation/counter-rotation. The big thing isn't the depth knee bend, although on NTN it kinda is because you get tippy toe, it is how you "stack," meaning where is you upper body compared to the trailing foot. Is it over it or are you over the front? Have you ever seen an alpine racer not deep with knee bend? Nope. They aren't upright at all. Hell Ted Ligety skies with almost 90 degree knee bend, practically sitting his but on the slope as he rails through the apex. Most folks I see who try to ski with little drop knee and heal raise ski hunched over the front foot, which is a very weak position, drop deep, upright or otherwise. In fact, like a lite heal lifter, the guy in the vid suffers the same issue but with a deep knee drop, that is he is over the front foot and not turning with the rear; he is dragging it, steering it, but not turning with it. Fine if you are blue running, but bad, bad, bad if you are trying to own a double black or even crank serious hard, deep turns on a blue.

[Harris]

I stand by what I say about technique and style changing over the years, but maybe things were different in Colorado than they were in Vermont back in the 80s.

I'm sure Harris is more experienced than me, I would never be able to tell what kind of boot a guy is wearing when they are covered from the Norwegian welt up by a supergaiter.

I was there then and I still ski that gear now.IMG_1189.JPGIMG_1189.JPG

Kudos for you to be still running the lace-ups and skinnies. Sometimes I wish I hadn't thrown out my old, dry-rotted and trashed leathers. They were a lot of fun when matched with my old Kazamas.

We are just going to have to disagree about the style changing thing. I still ski the same way I did in the mid-80s, and that is using either NTN or duckbills today mounted on "all mountain skis." Just saying. I think the vid I posted is much more representative of the skiing back then, with some excellent skiers mixed in with a lot of novice skiing.

Crested Butte was the Mecca for resort telemark skiing back then. It was where the sport was reborn if not invented (at least as a specific modern, alpine alternative), which was why after growing up in Steamboat, I moved to there in 1986. I wanted to ski around the big boys of the sport; to see what they could do off the race course. Honestly though, I think by 1986 the sport had gone pretty national. I know there were some badasses up in the Wasatch and Summit county. I have no idea what was was going on out west or east. But what I do know is that even compared to today, with our numbers having been rapidly shrunk by the AT craze, there were very few telemarkers on the slopes back then. It was an even far more niche sport than it is today.

[Lo-Fi]

... But as far as getting low, you had to. You had to for stability. Those old Asolo Extremes and Snowpines were sloppy, single boots. No liners and rather thin leather. In fact you would crack the welts in about 30 days of skiing resort. There was almost no torsional rigidity and sneaker like fore and aft. The way you got the inside ski to bite was by getting low and putting what felt like 80% of your weight on it, which to so could only be done by having the heel right under your butt, and with the long skinnies (most of us were on 210s) you could actually edge them in tandem pretty well. It was a very muscular, taxing turn. The skis also had a shitload of camber, much more than the alpine skis, and they would spring you from turn to turn when turned rapid fire. I could actually turn my boards a lot quicker down steep runs back on the old gear than I can on the new stuff, which are a heavier, blunter, more dampened tool today...

This exactly. An uncanny historical context too - almost identical to my own experience, although I was in Quebec.

It remains that my number one tip for improving technique is to have your back foot positioned such that if you drop down all the way your raised heel hits your butt cheek. In other words, your back foot in a turn is vertically below your hips. I think this is a slightly different emphasis than what is taught today, where they urge you to stay tight and lean over your front foot a bit more.

[Woodserson]

It just means hunkering from the waist down, and if you go down with the lead leg you're going to go deep with the rear leg knee bend, and that heal is going to come up. That was what I was trying to show in my old news paper clipping. I'm deep, but very much in a tight fore/aft stance, using a lot of hip angulation/counter-rotation. The big thing isn't the depth knee bend, although on NTN it kinda is because you get tippy toe, it is how you "stack," meaning where is you upper body compared to the trailing foot. Is it over it or are you over the front? Most folks I see who try to ski with little drop knee and heal raise ski hunched over the front foot, which is a very weak position, drop deep, upright or otherwise. In fact, like a lite heal lifter, the guy in the vid suffers the same issue but with a deep knee drop, that is he is over the front foot and not turning with the rear; he is dragging it, steering it, but not turning with it.

It remains that my number one tip for improving technique is to have your back foot positioned such that if you drop down all the way your raised heel hits your butt cheek. In other words, your back foot in a turn is vertically below your hips. I think this is a slightly different emphasis than what is taught today, where they urge you to stay tight and lean over your front foot a bit more.

This and this, +1. If I get down vertically stacked, keeping the heel underneath my butt, and act like an accordion not leaving the confines of my box I must/it naturally drive the back ski boot-cuff forward, actively weighting the ski and turning it. It becomes part of the package. This is my big skill project this year as I get into gnarlier terrain up north, especially keeping it clean and tight with quick turn transitions, and I think these two quotes are not only dead-on but well described-- thanks guys!

As a sideline- I put this goofy video in the movie thread because it is fun skiing, but it has two good examples of what not to do-- the protagonist usually has his heel far behind his ass when he skis generally and the "friend" he finds is just tepidly lifting the heel and getting unbalanced up front.

[Harris]

This exactly. An uncanny historical context too - almost identical to my own experience, although I was in Quebec

Yeah, you know exactly what I'm saying. Same turn just different era.

[Harris]

This and this, +1. If I get down vertically stacked, keeping the heel underneath my butt, and act like an accordion not leaving the confines of my box I must/it naturally drive the back ski boot-cuff forward, actively weighting the ski and turning it. It becomes part of the package. This is my big skill project this year as I get into gnarlier terrain up north, especially keeping it clean and tight with quick turn transitions, and I think these two quotes are not only dead-on but well described-- thanks guys!

Everyone skis it different, which is probably the coolest aspect. And every turn requires a different thing, which is another coolest aspect. We are always looking for the perfect turn in the perfect situation. And that was same 30 some odd years ago as it is today. And everyone has their own idea of what is perfection of moment. Some guys ski to rasta music. Some guys to Neil Diamond. Myself, when I was a kid I skied with this is in my head (via Sony Walkman and Indica gondoobies). I mean look at this kid! Night disher at the base area Grand Butte Hotel.