NTN/Alpine with inserts

[bbarnes1]

Hey All,

I've been telemarking for 4 seasons now. Currently I have a set of Salomon Shoguns 183cm skis with NTN freeride bindings. I'm a confident black diamond telemarker, confident on alpine gear anywhere. After the first season of telemarking, I sold my alpine gear.

This wasn't a problem going on ski trips with my wife. She started skiing about a year before I started telemarking, she is just now starting to keep up with me on black diamond/bowl type runs while I telemark.

The 'All Guy' ski trips are a different story. This year was the first year where I telemarked exclusively. This was ok until we get into extreme terrain, where I was fine but couldn't quite keep up. I found myself doing mostly alpine turns..... So I found a sweet deal on some Salomon quest max 120 alpine boots.

I'm a big fan of the salomon shogun skis. What I'd like to do is get a bunch on inserts and have the option of swap out NTN/Alpine bindings. I have a few questions.

1) What alpine bindings work best with the NTN mount pattern (least interference). I prefer rossignol axial style bindings, but i'm interested in trying out the new solly sth13.

2) I think I can handle the insert install. I've got a work bench and tools (i do all my own automotive work). I'd get the install kit, start with inserts for the existing NTN bindings, and let a shop mount the alpine bindings before I installed the alpine inserts. Any suggestions?

Anyone else currently use inserts to mount NTN and alpine bindings?

[TomH]

I can't answer what works best, but know what currently works for me.

I'm a Solly guy when it comes to alpine bindings, so have no clue on compatibility of Rossi's. My solo data point is that I've got NTN (old 6-hole metal plate pattern) and Salomon 912/916 (also out of production)... that I haven't had any interference issues with, and puts me within a half centimeter of having the boot centerlines in the same place.

I believe the STH pattern is either very similar or the same as the 912 pattern, but with maybe an extra hole for the heal.

The only way to know for sure is to get the binding templates and overlay them and see what you can make work. I have a feeling the wider footprint of the new NTN mounting plates (pink ones) may have more interference with the Solly toe pattern. Try to get ~1 cm of clearance between holes. I've got a couple that are in the 0.8 range though, and haven't had any issues.

Insert install is easy, just take your time and use a good (slow cure) epoxy, and make sure you drill/tap straight, as you have less room for error in vertical alignment with inserts. I like using a drill press, myself, but it's not necessary. I drill the hole, then throw the tap in the chuck and tap the hole by spinning the chuck by hand. It's not a terrible idea to do a couple installs into some scrap wood to get the hand of it, and get your drill depths correct. If you're too shallow, you might get some volcanoes.

Personally, I don't see any good reason to have a shop install the alpine bindings. Just do them at the same time as you do the NTN inserts. Just spend a good amount of time on the layout, and centerpunch all your holes to keep the drill bit from wandering.

[bbarnes1]

Thanks for the info TomH

My NTN bindings are the older, raw metal plates. Thanks for the advice on the template, makes a lot of sense.

I've never mounted alpine bindings before.... not sure my shoguns are the place to start, but i'll think about it....

[Johnny]

Welcome to TT BBarnes!

That's a great idea... Most of the skis I buy for telemark come with Axial bindings... Holes don't interfere much but you do have to drill 6 new holes for the old NTN plate.

So you're gonna have 8 holes for NTN and 8 for the Axials... It's really easy to break a ski with 16 holes around the same area. But it's never been a problem for me. Well, I do break skis but every time, it's springtime bumps fault...

But it could be a bit more problematic with inserts... Tom is right, try to get as much clearance as you can... And make the best out of NTN's manual adjustment / plate position.

Good luck!

[bbarnes1]

Hmmm... I guess I figured that an insert epoxied in place wouldn't weaken the ski. I'd guess the metal of the insert along with the epoxy interface is just as strong as the wood in replaces, if not stronger.

I agree that care should be taken in proximity of the inserts. Again, this is because the wood is the weak link and may fail between two closely place inserts. I was thinking 1 insert diameter would probably be enough space.

[bbarnes1]

heres a cut at the toe section holes of NTN and Axial2. This is with both boots at ski center assuming that boot center is half of sole length.

Looks pretty good

[Johnny]

Wow, it looks just perfect to me...!

(You should see what some of my skis look like... )

[dschane]

TomH pretty much covered it all. You can swiss cheese your skis without worry, so I wouldn't think twice about putting in the holes for NTN and alpine. Looks like it will fit no problem but worst case is you move the alpine mount 1-2 cm forward.

I do not do inserts with a drill press (don't own one); it's pretty simple to do it by hand -- any problems I've ever encountered were due to my own sloppiness (not drilling deep enough, not tapping deep enough, tapping too deep, not double-checking alignment, not drinking enough beer, etc)

The only tip I'd add is if you're going to do it by hand, I like to start with a center punch and then increase the size of the hole progressively, beginning with a small drill bit and using 1 or 2 more increasingly bigger bits before I get to the 1/4" bit. I also use compressed air after tapping and before epoxy to make sure the holes are clean -- that's a bit anal though. The blue Double Bubble epoxy is great.

Good luck.

[TomH]

There's been enough hours logged and time on swiss-cheesed (with inserts) skis to more or less discount any concerns with a ski snapping. Go look at TGR - plenty of examples, and I've been running inserted skis for 4+ years now. That is a concern with too many previous plugged holes, but in my own and several others experience the insert lends a lot of strength to the ski. So long as you do a good job with the install/epoxying, you'll have no problems.

Your template layout looks good on the clearance, and you could cheat one or the other a smidge to maximize clearance.

As dschane said, it's pretty damn easy to do by hand, especially if you have a bubble on your drill, or use a drill guide. I have easy access to a press, though, and my ability to drill vertical is pretty crappy, so that's why I go with the press. Like dschane, I also start with a small bit for an initial pilot, as it lines up the center punch easier, and then I move up to the insert size bit. After tapping, I bang out the debris with the ski upside down, then shop vac it.

For the actual insert install, I dry fit each hole before epoxying to make sure I have good starting threads. I run the insert in half-way then remove (easy with binding freedom inserts - needs a pliers with quiver killers).

I should also mention, make sure the inserts are degreased. They use to come with the cutting oil still on them, and you had to degrease them. I believe binding freedom now degreases prior to shipping, but I still dump them all in a cup of degreaser just to make sure.

I wouldn't have any concern on mounting the alpine bindings - it's just drilling holes. If you're not comfortable with adjusting them to your boots, just take them into the shop after mounting. I just don't trust shop techs to do a good job with my equipment anymore (seen too many crooked toes and shoddy installs). You can also google for the shop manual for your particular binding, and you'll find all the information for correctly setting up and adjusting the binding that will never be included with the bindings, as they don't want you to have that info.

[bogon]

Older Dynafits (which are the "best alpine bindings" IMO) share some BF inserts with my steel-plate-sitting black Freerides (actually three of them - yes I add 7th screw to the front of steel NTN plate just because the insert is already there - round file on plate helps with frame clearance).

Other than that, consider Look/Rossi FKS - not much point in using anything else for ISO/DIN boots anyway...