Alpina nnn-bc boots

[dorthman]

Specifically the BC1600, Montana, & Wyoming

http://www.alpinasports.com/product/bc_1600/89
http://www.alpinasports.com/product/montana/618
http://www.alpinasports.com/product/wyoming/617

I already have a pair of alaska's (75mm) for more demanding trail-skiing

Looking for an nnn-bc boot for a more efficient, striding, xcd setup (eons/annums)

The Black leather 1600s look the best to me

Wyomings appear to be synthetic/non leather

Anyone skied any of these? My concerns being fit/ankle support and durability

[MikeK]

What is holding you back from the Alaska, other than cost?

My NNN-BC Alaska is my preferred striding boot. It's also a pretty damn good dh boot. It's definitely heavier than a real XC touring boot or skate boot, but I'm not sure it's going to be a significant difference comparing any of the other options.

The sole flex does not hold me back one bit. I can stride and skate very easily with this boot.

You may even wind up ditching your 75mm version... I did...

[Dirtbag]

I loged a lot of in track miles last year in my new Alaskas. Also had a lot of downhill fun on E99s too. So comfy but make good turning power too without a bunch of stiffness. Love these things couldn't see needing a "lighter" boot for me. Oh and warm!

[dorthman]

What is holding you back from the Alaska, other than cost?

My NNN-BC Alaska is my preferred striding boot. It's also a pretty damn good dh boot. It's definitely heavier than a real XC touring boot or skate boot, but I'm not sure it's going to be a significant difference comparing any of the other options.

The sole flex does not hold me back one bit. I can stride and skate very easily with this boot.

You may even wind up ditching your 75mm version... I did...

I do wish I got the Alaska BC in the first place. I don't really like the wimpy duckbill/soft sole of the 75. But they are comfy and warm and ski p nice so I'm sticking with them.

Not really prepared or willing to dish out for the BC version, would rather go a bit lighter/lower cut in the cuff and fill the hole in my quiver between my NNN Classic ski/boot and 75mm/Alaska setups, possibly even eliminate the NNN Classic setups since i don't ski nordie groomers much

[MikeK]

I may be fighting a losing battle here... but... you may find the NNN-BC Alaska can do the job of two boots.

You could easily sell the 75mm version for the difference in price between buying a new NNN-BC version over the other "lesser" boots.

I guarantee you won't find it a hindrance for K+G and it will make your 75mm version of little use to you. It will definitely parallel turn as good or better than the 75mm version.

[lilcliffy]

There are many differences in these boots, both in terms of ankle support, but also in terms of sole flex. The Alaska having the stiffest flex- which is what I prefer for backcountry XCD skiing. The sole flex of the Alaska offers support and power transfer when striding on variable snow and terrain. Once they are broken in, the sole flex is flexible enough to be able to put concentrated BOF pressure on your trailing ski.

The BC1600 has a significantly softer flex than the Alaska- I would assume that the others you mention would be similar- or perhaps even softer. If you contact Alpina in Solvenia, they will be happy to discuss every detail of their boots!

Mike's observations of the Crispi Svartisen BC suggests that it has an even stiffer sole flex than the Alaska! This might initially make down-hill skiing a bit of a "tippy-toe" affair! But- I would imagine once the Svartisen is broken in it should be easy to apply pressure to the trailing ski.

A boot that is very soft flexing- right out of the box- is going to be super floppy once it is broken in. I personally hate a sole flex that is soft and floppy. It offers very little support- it tends to be torsionally soft as well- and there is no mechanical advantage when striding or pressuring a ski.

A sole that is moderately stiff will offer both support and flexibility when striding- but it will also transfer powerful downward force into the ski.

UTE magazine goes as far as suggesting that the BC1600 is really only suitable for the groomed track:
http://www.utemagasinet.no/Utstyr/Sko-deg

[MikeK]

Mike's observations of the Crispi Svartisen BC suggests that it has an even stiffer sole flex than the Alaska! This might initially make down-hill skiing a bit of a "tippy-toe" affair! But- I would imagine once the Svartisen is broken in it should be easy to apply pressure to the trailing ski.

I've found not the case if you do it right. Perhaps it was at first before I got the feel.

If you are getting tip-toed with the stiff soled NNNs, it seems to me you're not putting enough pressure on the rear ski. With the ski sufficiently weighted, the sole easily flexes, even brand new, and keeps the BOF on the ski.

I think the hardest part is not getting too stretched out - if you do, that forces more weight on the front ski, and naturally pulls the sole off the plate and onto the bumper like it does when you stride. Because you don't have anything really resisting you from stretching way out, you have to be very conscience of it. Thinking about it and trying it just standing, not actually sliding helps. You can kind of see how far you can go before you get into an awkward position (before it happens) and train yourself a bit. You can get low too, but you have to remember to flex your front knee forward, which is hard - often times I've found that to be one of my biggest problems. Go too low, and let the front foot slide forward. You still keep the weight on the back ski, but you end up way in the back seat.

[lilcliffy]

Good stuff Mike- I didn't mean to suggest that- if the Svartisen is stiffer- a sole stiffer than the Alaska would be a negative thing. Stiffness in the sole flex translates into stability and power- both xcountry and downhill skiing.

As you point out there is no resistance to a fully-extended stride with NNNBC- therefore it is critical to focus on body-positioning, weighting that rear BOF, and avoiding elongation.

I love the feel of some resistance to sole flex- I can feel the power transfer downwards as I flex the sole.

Just as I prefer a ski that responds when I transfer power down into it- I also prefer a boot sole that does the same.

It is also important to recognize that, regardless of straps/cuffs, the primary source of torsional rigidity in these BC-XC boots comes from the sole flex. XC ski boots that have a very soft flex, tend to have a sole that twists as well, resulting in less torsional power.

As a test comparison- both the Fischer BX6 and the Svatisen BC are more torsionally powerful than their soft-flexing 75mm versions:
http://www.utemagasinet.no/Utstyr/Sko-deg

[MikeK]

I like it too - it's a nice, fluid release of energy as your foot goes from BOF to flat at the end of your stride.

There's definitely a limit for me... the new Svartisen is right on it. It's at the point it's starting to impede that motion rather than give you a nice energy release. I'm pretty sure they are pushing this right to the max to get the most balance between striding and turning for the fjellskis.

It does however take a lot of forethought for the dh aspect. In that regard, it probably does give you better tight-stance tele technique if you master it. I'm good for maybe 1 out of 3... the other two are usually not quite centered. You really feel that front foot getting away from you in leather boots. In plastic Alpine, you'd feel the rear of the cuff on your calf and know you are in the backseat, but leather you don't have a cuff, even on the boots that do (the Svartisen won't hold you up ), so you really just feel like the front ski has "gone away".