Scarpa T2 Eco/boot fit question

[2fifty6]

Hello all!

I'm brand new to telemark skiing (and to this forum), having just started back in February. Been wanting to learn for a while (I've got a bunch of relatives who are long-time tele skiers) and am finally in a position to do so! I'm brimming with questions, which I'll probably pose here on the forum sooner or later, but tonight I'll start off with just one.

My question is about boots. The current iteration of the Scarpa T2 boots, in particular, known as the Ecos (i.e., this model: https://www.rei.com/product/839494/scar ... s-20122013.) I just got a pair at a good end-of-season sale price. Based on what I've read in forums and reviews and such, I think the model is perfect for starting off: not to beefy, not too light, both capable and comfortable. Having been Satisfied with rental BD Seekers of both size 30 and 30.5, I was told that a size 30 T2 would be just right.

Well, I've got my new boots on in the house right now. With much effort I was able to get the buckles only as far as the first tooth (the touring tooth in the case of the top buckle). That was while wearing standard hiking socks. They also feel a bit tight, particularly around the shin/calf--although not painfully so. It's literally as loose as it's going to get while being buckled, though.

Having been told that this would be a suitable size for me, I'm left with the question(s) I'd like to pose here: do they just need to adjust/get broken in a bit, or are they genuinely too small? Once I've got boots on my feet, how do I tell if they really do fit properly? I know Scarpa's shell sizes break at the whole size, so would I be better off with a 30.5?

I'm told that boots are arguably the most critical part of one's gear to get right, since it can make or break one's experience no matter how good the rest of your gear is. So...what say ye (especially those who have/use the T2 Eco)?

[dnt_upton]

There are a few possibilities here:

1. Scarpa boots don't fit you as well as BD boots.

2. BD 30/30.5 have a boot sole length of 346 mm. Scarpa T2 Eco 29.5/30.0 have a bsl of 341. The 30.5/31 has a bsl of 350 mm. Hard to say for sure which Scarpa size would be better for you without measuring your foot.

3. You may be able to adjust the top buckle. There are three options for the teeth and, with an allen wrench, you may be able to move the teeth so you can engage them easier. Just depends on where it is set now.

It is a great boot and welcome to the world of tele-tinkering.

[2fifty6]

Thanks for the insight! Additional thoughts below:

1. Scarpa boots don't fit you as well as BD boots.

Certainly a possibility, but hopefully it's more "beginner's ignorance" than true incompatibility. I suppose I have the advantage of not knowing what "perfect" feels like, which makes the "comfortable enough" range of gear a lot bigger (for the time being).

2. ...Hard to say for sure which Scarpa size would be better for you without measuring your foot.

Using the quick stand-against-the-wall method, my feet appear to be around 27-28 cm from heel to toe. That suggests that the size 30 I have would actually be too big, not too small, right? That may tie into your third point:

3. You may be able to adjust the top buckle. There are three options for the teeth and, with an allen wrench, you may be able to move the teeth so you can engage them easier. Just depends on where it is set now.

A very important (and non-obvious to a beginner) observation! That may change everything. It's too late tonight, but I'll try taking an allen wrench to that buckle tomorrow to see what happens.

Now, despite the tightness around the shin, I followed the advice towards the end of this thread and tried the boots out in my skis (on the nice groomed surface of my living room carpet). Wearing thinner socks, my feet almost felt a bit loose in the boots when I flexed the boots in a tele stance. I'll have to try it again with the thicker socks I would probably actually wear on the slopes.

In my general web searches, I found a Scarpa boot-fitting video that suggests placing the foot in a shell and making sure that free space behind the heel is between about 1/2 and 3/4 inches. I gave it a shot and found I had well over an inch back there on these boots. So, perhaps the BD rental boots weren't the best way to judge size after all. We'll see how things feel after I experiment with the upper buckle adjustment tomorrow. It would be ironic if the boots I feared were too small turned out to be much too big once properly adjusted.

It is a great boot and welcome to the world of tele-tinkering.

Thanks! If only there were still snow to go try it out on this season!

[dnt_upton]

You should definitely measure your feet. Mondo sizing is, theoretically, supposed to match the length of your foot in cm. Mark your foot on a piece of paper and measure. Of course, arch, heels, volume, etc. don't get factored into that very simple equation. So yes, if you're feet measure between 27 and 28, you're likely a 27.5/28.0, maybe a 28.5/29.0. What size is your street shoe.

I personally am a fan of thin(ish) socks. Personal pref.

There are a lot of other things one can do to improve fit. Custom footbeds, baking/molding the liners, shimming heels (under the liner), adding padding around liner in heel/achilles/ankle areas, etc. A good bootfitter can be worth his/her weight in gold.

But all of this starts with the correct size, and it's not clear that you're there yet.

[Rodbelan]

Hard to say but I guess thermoforming might be the solution... These Intuition liners get very soft and adaptive when heated...

[2fifty6]

Well, I adjusted the upper buckle today to its widest setting (it was on the middle one), which gave it perhaps another centimeter of girth. Not quite as tight, but still pretty snug and only really able to go to the first non-touring tooth. With moldable liners, I gather that the foam could be compressed a bit to help, though, if this turned out to be a suitable size boot for my feet.

Speaking of feet, I re-measured them a little more carefully today and confirmed that they are about 27.5 cm (give or take a smidge). The trickier part is the shoe size. I have shoes ranging from 10 1/2 to 13, depending on the brand and the type. My Merrell hiking boots are 13s, for example, while my slip-on dress shoes are size 11. Both are quite comfortable. (To be honest, I've always wondered how "street shoes" could be a reliable measuring tool given the variation between manufacturers and styles.)

Aside from bare foot measurements, I think the best reference (imperfect as it may be) that I have is how other ski boots have felt. The main ski boot references I have are the 30 and 30.5 BD Seekers I rented for my recent ski outings and a pair of used Garmont Gara Firepower boots (apparently the 2001 model, since they look exactly like these boots) that came with the used tele skis I bought on Craigslist. (K2 Super Stinx, for the curious.) The Garmonts have size 29 liners and shells that say "29*30.5" on the tongue.

As far as fit goes, both sizes of Seekers worked well enough for a day on the slopes, while the Garmonts feel almost painfully cramped after a few minutes of wearing them.

Your point about all the variables affecting fit--and the need for a good bootfitter--is well taken. I'm not sure exactly how to go about finding a good bootfitter nearby, though. Any tips? (I'm in Albuquerque, if that helps. My searches suggest the nearest one would be in Taos?)

Barring a convenient quality bootfitter, I'm almost ready to resign myself to an imperfect fit that at least gets me onto the mountain next season without breaking the bank....


EDIT: Forgot to mention that the T2's liners when worn alone feel pretty loose. There's about an inch between my big toe and the front of the liner. I'm guessing that's too loose for a liner?

[brenda.smith]

The Scarpa actually seen to run a bit big. When I got fitted for my T2 Ecos at my local ski so, I ended up with 23.5, which is equivalent to a women's 6 in US sizing. I wear 8s! But the boots fit really well. I have the same issue with the buckles due to monstrous calves. As mentioned above, make sure they're moved as far over as possible. Also, the buckles themselves have some lengthening properties of you twist them multiple times. My boots are really tight when I first put them on, but after a few runs, I end up tightening them up a few ratchets because they've loosened and feel sloppy. So hopefully it won't cause you much of an issue. Good luck!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[dnt_upton]

I'm 99% certain your boots are too big. There shouldn't be an inch from the toes to the end of the liner. Skiers with a racing background will probably want zero gap, and skiers who tour more may want a hair more room. But someone with a 27.5 cm foot would most likely be deciding between the 26.5/27.0 and 27.5/28.0. Maybe but doubtful the 28.5/29.0 would work, though in your case (with a range of 10.5-13), this maybe more likely. Bootfitters (I'm not one) typically say that customers tend to get boots that are too big for their feet.

There must be a decent ski shop in Albuqueque to figure out fit. You don't necessarily need a bootfitter for that. You could also ask here, TGR, and Backcountrytalk to see if there are any NM folks with recommendations on boot fitters. At the very least, you should go to a good ski shop. I can't explain/understand how a 30 sized Seekers fit well. Did the rental shop take your measurements with one of those Brannock devices or just take your word for it?

And if you can return those Scarpa boots, I wouldn't ski them until you figure out the correct size. As you noted from the start, your experience starts with a good fitting boot. If forced to choose, I'd always spend the most on boots.

[jzahnny]

My foot length is about 28 cm and I love my new T2s in a 28. I have a low volume foot and skinny ankles. When you're staring out I think it's good to get your feet into as many boots as you can to find the brand or model that works because it's as much about the volume as it is the length.

[2fifty6]

Thank you all for your insights. I've been learning a lot in the past few days, both on here and in interactions with shoe/sports stores.

In making measurements using a Brannock device, I've confirmed the 27.5-cm length of my feet. I've also determined that their width is a high D, perhaps a low E, and that the instep is about 28-29 cm. From what I've read, particularly about instep, that means I've got a "high volume" foot. Does that sound correct?

Based on that, it sounds like the numbers are pointing me at either a 28 or a 29. (The 30s will go back--though I'll probably wait till I can compare with another size.) From what jzahnny said, it sounds like sizes run true for those with low volume feet, so perhaps a 29 for me then? Or do sizes that close together not differ much in dimensions other than length? (For example, I've noticed that Scarpa states that their last is 102 mm, making no mention of size differences.)

Also, I've heard both that Scarpas tend to be skinny/comfortable for low volume feet and that Scarpas tend to be wider/higher volume than other brands. For the newest models, which statement is true?